[Winona Online Democracy]
Hello Duane Peterson,
Your points about the legal issues involved in the Palm Beach County
election controversy are well taken.
I don't mean to be flippant, but sometimes lawyers and yes, even judges,
seem to have their noses to close to the page when they are reading statues
and forget to move their heads back and take a look at the bigger picture.
Sometimes "legalese" defies common sense and even ethics. The law and
justice have always been two different things. The two have been slowly
inching toward each other over the centuries but they still don't live in
the same house.
If we were to look back to the courts of the 1800's, we would see countless
arguements about the statues in cases of slavery. The minutia of outdated
and unjust laws preoccupied the time of most lawyers and judges, not the
bigger issues of justice and morality.
I may be in the minority here but I don't think the courts should be the
final arbitrators on this issue. As I understand it, the judiciary usually
does not make laws, they merely interpret the laws that legislators and
politicians have made. If a law or statue is flawed, they usually will not
talk about that, they usually just fixate on the wording of that flawed
law. I don't want the partisan polticians involved either. With modern
media and spin doctors, it's too easy to distort the issues beyond
recognition. I think that the outcome should be decided by the people in
the form of a referendum (about what to do) or a revote.
Depending on what numbers you use, aren't between 19,000 and 30,000
disqualifed votes a staggering number when you consider that the election
differance is only 300 votes?
Do you think the courts are the best and fairest place to resolve this issue?
Dwayne Voegeli
==============
>From: "Duane Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Winona] Gene Thiele's Points
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 01:52:23 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
>
>Duwayne, You say "Why can't they simply vote again in Palm Beach County or
>any other county in the country where things are as bad as they are in parts
>of Florida?" This comment assumes that things are bad enough in Palm Beach
>county. The question for the courts is to determine whether the voting
>procedure allows the voter's intention to be expressed on the ballot. The
>actual ballot must be respected as the voter's intention unless by looking
>at the ballot it is reasonable to determine that the voter's intention has
>been thwarted. Having participated in the famous Rolvaag-Anderson recount,
>I found that there was a great variety of possible ways to challenge any
>ballot. In the end most of the challenges were dismissed as minor,
>insignificant errors that did not thwart the voter's intent.
>We must be careful to remember that the precedents we set will have an
>impact on future elections. The balloting process must be fair to the
>candidates and to the voter. The vote actually cast must be respected and
>counted unless it is impossible to tell what the voter's intent was. Voters
>do not have a right to demand an opportunity to recast a vote unless his/her
>reason for objection to the process was unfair not only to him/her but to
>all who voted. If 95% of the voters had no problem, is it fair to judge
>that the process (form of ballot etc) was unfair. How unfair must it be in
>order to hold a revote? We must be careful not to grant an opportunity to
>revote (it is not a remedy provided by any present statutory law) unless
>there is no other alternative. Once the people have made a choice that can
>be ascertained, it should be honored. That precedent is more important than
>the outcome of any specific election. I think that the Courts in Florida
>will apply similar principles in judging the challenges now being raised in
>Florida.
>Duane M. Peterson
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 5:12 PM
>Subject: [Winona] Gene Thiele's Points
>
>
>> [Winona Online Democracy]
>>
>> Hello Winona Online Democracy,
>>
>> I wanted to respond to some of Gene Thiele's points.
>>
>> Gene, first of all, I want to say I'm glad you live in Winona. You liven
>> up any discussion. Every community needs a few devil's advocates.
>> Seriously, even though I disagree with some of your points of view, I
>> respect them because they are well thought out.
>>
>> ;->
>>
>> Some quick responses to your points.
>>
>> 1. 1960 Election: What happened in Mayor Daly's Chicago during 1960 was
>> wrong, no denying that! But does that mean we should overlook the almost
>> 30,000 disqualied votes in Palm Beach County? George W. Bush's brother is
>> the Governor of Florida. His father is the former head of the CIA, an
>> organization that is infamous for affecting elections in countries all
>> around the globe. I did not vote for either Mr. Bush or Mr. Gore. I am
>> worried about either of them in office. I don't have any partisan axes to
>> grind. Why can't they simply vote again in Palm Beach County or any other
>> county in the country where things are as bad as they are in parts of
>> Florida? I can't believe that those kinds of "irregularities" are usually
>> tolerated.
>>
>>
>> 2. The Oppressed 1%: Sometimes I can't tell when you are being serious
>and
>> when you are just saying something to elicit reactions out of others. Do
>> you really think the richest 1% of Americans suffer under the current
>> political system?
>>
>>
>> 3. Democratic Improvements: You mentioned the abolition of slavery,
>> women's sufferage, and the Civil Right's Movement of the 1960's. It
>always
>> interests me when Conservatives talk of those things. In your opinion,
>how
>> did those things come about? How did the Consevatives of the time react
>to
>> those bleeding heart, liberal, and radical ideas?
>>
>>
>> 4. Changing the Constitution: You are right, it should not be changed
>> often. At the same time, when should it be changed? Most of the modern
>> world's democracies have more mature democracies than ours mainly because
>> they were created after our Constitution was. They made improvements on
>> older models. Should we take a good hard look at our system of democracy?
>> My gosh, 3 billion dollars spent on an election that garnered only 53 % of
>> the vote. Our system is so ripe with corruption and cyncism, it's scary.
>>
>>
>> 5. Critizing on the 1960's: The last line of your message read, "And
>> imagine what kind of constitution might have come out of the sixties!".
>> What exactly worries you about the 60's? The Civil Right's Movement? The
>> Peace Movement that refused to blindly follow orders and which most of
>it's
>> points were proven right by recent admissions of govt. and military
>leaders
>> of the time? Or were you worried about the 1860's when the 13th, 14th,
>and
>> 15th Amendments were passed? These were the Amendments that outlawed
>> slavery and stated citizenship could not be denied based on race.
>> Remember, how liberal and radical those ideas were?
>>
>>
>> Please pardon my grammar, I have a 3 and 2 year old playing all about me.
>>
>> :->
>>
>> Dwayne
>>
>> ============
>>
>>
>>
>> >From: "Gene Thiele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Subject: Re: [Winona] RE: Election
>> >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:42:34 -0600
>> >MIME-Version: 1.0
>> >X-Priority: 3
>> >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>> >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
>> >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >Precedence: bulk
>> >
>> >[Winona Online Democracy]
>> >
>> >Dean,
>> >
>> >You inadvertently make the ideal argument for the electoral college.
>What
>> >if, in 1960, several voting machines in key republican districts of
>Illinois
>> >just disappear. Kennedy might have won the election by less than 200,000
>> >votes. Oh, sorry. That did happen.
>> >
>> >The electoral college, from what the talking heads on TV are saying (and
>> >they seem to know more about it than I do), was intended to prevent the
>> >presidential election from becoming a popularity contest. (Since you're
>> >reminiscing about high school, think about the king and queen of prom.)
>> >Imagine if a candidate were to target a segment of the population, say
>the
>> >richest 1%, and tell the other 99% he was going to tax that 1% into
>> >oblivion. Not only that but he was going to redistribute that money to
>the
>> >99% through a series of government entitlements. That would certainly
>> >garner some votes, perhaps even 48% of the votes. Oh, sorry. That
>happened
>> >too.
>> >
>> >To be serious for a moment, the fact that America is not a pure
>democracy,
>> >and is in fact a republic, has redeemed us to this point. We have
>delegated
>> >our voice to a representative that we expect to act in the public good.
>If
>> >we were to submit to majority rule, we may not have ever attained
>abolition
>> >in the 19th century, suffrage for blacks, women, and non-property owners
>in
>> >the 20th century, or civil rights in the 60's. If majority rules, we'd
>be
>> >governed by polls. If majority rules, partial birth abortion would be
>> >banned, all the public schools would be Christian, and you would never
>see
>> >civil unions for homosexual couples.
>> >
>> >Perhaps the solution is a compromise. Let the congressional district
>> >representatives carry their own votes into the electoral college. The
>lines
>> >are already drawn, it's how the votes are dolled out to the states now.
>> >Then let the 2 senatorial votes be cast for the majority candidate within
>> >the state, or split based on a tie. It brings us one step closer to the
>> >popular vote and still honors the original intent of the founders.
>> >
>> >In any case, we have to be very careful of messing with our constitution.
>> >It is old but enduring, and has served us well. We could write another
>> >constitution every generation or so, but then we'd be no better off than
>> >France. And imagine what kind of constitution might have come out of the
>> >sixties!
>> >
>> >gene thiele
>> >winona, mn
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:57 PM
>> >Subject: RE: [Winona] RE: Election
>> >
>> >
>> >> [Winona Online Democracy]
>> >>
>> >> Cherisa;
>> >> This may date me a bit, but i remember walking into my Sophomore (High
>> >> School)
>> >> English class the day after the election in 68 and our teacher who was
>> >from
>> >> Chicago
>> >> telling those of us in the class who were Humphry backers not to worry
>> >> because
>> >> Mayor Daily in Chicago would "Find enough votes" for him in Chicago
>that
>> >he
>> >> would
>> >> pull it off.
>> >> Alas he was wrong, but other than that i don't remember anything
>> >resembling
>> >> this
>> >> mess.
>> >> Not to get on my soapbox here which may not be the proper form, but i
>> >think
>> >> this
>> >> shows beyond a doubt the need to amend the Constitution to do away with
>> >the
>> >> electoral college.
>> >> Dean.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------
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>> >>
>> >
>> >----------------
>> >This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project.
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>>
>>
>>
>> **********************************************************
>>
>> Dwayne and Denine Voegeli
>>
>> Social Studies and Science Teachers
>> Winona Senior High School
>> 901 W. Gilmore Ave.
>> Winona, MN 55987 USA
>>
>> Home Voice Mail: (507) 453-9012
>> School telephone number: (507) 454-9509
>>
>> E-mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> Personal Web Page: http://www.jarviscomputer.com/voegeli
>>
>> High School Web Site: http://wshs.luminet.net/
>>
>> A Web Site About the City of Winona: http://winonanet.com/home.html
>>
>>
>>
>> "Education is not preparation for life, education is life itself."
>>
>> -- John Dewey
>>
>> ***********************************************************
>>
>>
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>> This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project.
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>
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