Hi Rob,
As a Hu forum admin and not a native English speaker lot of time raised
the forum question from beginning.
I dissatisfied with your ignorant behavior to forums, you not want to
make any steps to understand our questions.
Not registered into forums, and not see into the discussions.
Why you think the volunteers and admins will join to this list, if you
not makes any steps into the other directions?
Regards,
Zoltan
The forums works differently what Apache works, and you can understand
2011.09.04. 16:15 keltezéssel, Rob Weir írta:
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Terry Ellison<[email protected]> wrote:
A few days ago, I made the statement below and received a generally robust
and unapologetic response. I don't want to rehash this again, but this
tipped the balance for me and I decided to finish off my work with Apache
and hand over. What has somewhat surprised me and this is the issue that I
want to flag up the the PPMC in this note, is the volume and tone of the
general responses that I received when I let the forums know of my decision
to hand over and stand down.
I don't see anything recent from you on the forums. Can you send a
link to your note and the responses? It is much better to get first
hand information, I think, then to have it filtered through someone
else.
In essence my concerns and fears seem to be shared by most of the NL admins,
moderators and volunteers that staff the forums and do over 90% of the work
to respond to end users. Until this last week my views were probably at the
more positive end of the spectrum. If this happens then we aren't going to
be left with any functioning forums, so I am starting to consider quite
seriously why I am continuing to do this work at all.
I would encourage the NL admins to be as vocal as you are, and to
raise their issues directly on ooo-dev. It will be very hard for
them to acclimate to Apache, and for us to understand their concerns,
if they do not participate directly on the project's primary
discussion list. I'm grateful, of course, for any attempts to collect
and consolidate feedback and bring it to this list, but that is an
inadequate substitute for an authentic two-way conversion.
The following pieces of advice you've offered us are all good topics
for discussion. What can we do to get the admins to come over and
discuss these items? Note that discussing these points a private
forum would go against the need for overall transparency. So the
admins need to meet us half-way here.
-Rob
Please consider taking active steps:
* To realise that these people spend all of their pro-bono time
working in the forum model and generally hate using email for
anything other than 1-1 communication. We need to have a mutually
efficient way of working together.
* To understand that the forums are a well oiled machine that are
administered tightly and efficiently and have been for years.
Please understand how the system works and what its strengths and
weakness are, before demanding changes.
* Please don't demand, but provide rational explanations for the
need to change and use sensible change management to change
working policies and practices.
* Reach out and consider how to work with people for whom English is
a second language, who find it hard work to read a simple and well
formatted document or post and who just cannot follow complex
email threads that are a dozen levels deep and get completely
mangled by some respondents:
o Keep thread simple and maintain thread discipline
o Try to give direct answers to direct questions
o All participants configure their email clients to use
"text/plain; format=flowed" encoding, as "text/plain" only
can completely mangle nesting of reply content.
Of course the PPMC doesn't have to do any of this, but also please accept my
parting advice that if you don't then you are effectively and knowingly
killing the forums off. At some point these people will have decide whether
to stay and tough it out; to leave one-by-one; or to take this service
elsewhere.
Regards Terry Ellison
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 01/09/11 23:02, Terry Ellison wrote:
Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel
that I am caught between a rock and a hard place. My work is time consuming
and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer,
but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin. In some ways you need to be
an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise.
I am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine. Again this only
my personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a few
individuals. It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of
expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more relevant
to the work and Apache's wider mission. In short I am being asked to work
long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional environment.
If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be seriously
thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent 32 years
working with the same company working to get to its top technical tier --
and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono
