Hi Rob, Your technical item was an interesting distraction. It may have a use. I think below you give a good explanation of your plan.
Let me express a recommendation that ought to alleviate my concerns about the full MX issues. I am still concerned that we may be abandoning a database of over 450,000 OOo users, but that is another, related, topic. On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Rob Weir wrote: > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Rob, >> >> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and >> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions. It seemed to >> me >> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be >> retired. >> >> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know >> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired >> list. It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail >> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your >> experiment did. >> > > So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to > all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many > of the lists? > > Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the user: > > 1) They still need to read two emails: One that tells them to expect > an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice. If we don't do the > first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears > to come unsolicited. > > 2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email > > 3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to > click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email. So > in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going > against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers > to join our list? Got it. One email - repeated. If the text around the mailto: informs the user not to use an @openoffice.org address for their new subscription then my concerns are moot. It should be something like "All personal @openoffice.org email address forwarders will be dropped on migration." The text of this email needs to be carefully considered on ooo-dev. Since you plan a review then I am fine. I also think that the one (or more) OOo legacy ML that are being continued should be clearly mentioned as well. Look at this email as the one opportunity to get a clear message about AOOo out to all of these subscribers. We have a difficult story for the user and it needs to be the most positive and consistent message possible. > > This makes zero sense for me. If you want to do it, then please > volunteer. But as an employee of a large multinational corporation > that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in > any such approach. I am looking at this as due diligence before making a decision where there is no going back. Regards, Dave > > -Rob > > > >> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless. >> >> - Dennis >> >> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD >> >> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the >> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would >> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to >> the distribution list of the retiring ML. Those moderators can be expected >> to >> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions. >> >> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already? The Oracle Privacy >> Policy might be the governing situation. >> >> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members, >> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rob Weir [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it >>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient). If the >>> list >>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation >>> could >>> be considered. >>> >> >> I don't see how this could work. Maybe if you happen to be a >> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any >> personal liability related to data protection laws. But I don't see >> how this would work in general. Any thing we do to automate this >> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an >> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and >> entering their email address. They would need to do an action like >> that, and then respond to the confirmation email. >> >> >>> - Dennis >>> >>> THINKING OUT LOUD >>> >>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are >>> customizable by list. I thought they were. A valuable way to do this might >>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL >>> ones. Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable. I notice >>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be >>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very >>> useful >>> to link to. The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists >>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc. >>> >>> OPEN ITEMS >>> >>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit >>> @ >>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57 >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> <snip> >>> >>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list >>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not >>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists >>>> into >>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project >>>> owner" >>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists). >>>> >>> >>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list >>> automatically. I looked just at the technical aspect of this. I did >>> not look at the legal or policy implications. >>> >>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by >>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager. For example, >>> to subscribe [email protected] to this list, you would send an email to: >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an = >>> >>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a >>> confirmation email, to [email protected], in English: >>> >>> >>> ----------------- >>> >>> "Subject: confirm subscribe to [email protected] >>> >>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the >>> [email protected] mailing list. >>> >>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached >>> at [email protected]. >>> >>> To confirm that you would like >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send >>> a short reply to this address: >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button. >>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into >>> the "To:" field of a new message. >>> >>> or click here: >>> >>> mailto:[email protected]"; >>> ----------------- >>> >>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully >>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved >>> the legal and policy issues. I don't know if there are other, >>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra, >>> to more fully automate this. >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>
