Bob, Andreas answered your questions. If you weren't going to like the answers, why did you ask? It seems odd that someone answers the questions asked and then gets beat up for it. Was this an exam that Andreas was supposed to pass with an essay response?
I agree the ad hominem stuff is too think on both sides of these questions. But his last answers are direct responses to the questions you asked. Also, his observations about forums were very specific to forums that he uses, and he named them. Not about potential forums, or hypothetical forums, etc. His comparison with some lists he also participates in (though un-named) are also based on his actual experience and I witness all that too. This is not hypothetical but what users actually are experiencing in some very concrete cases. Also, it strikes me that e-mail lists are often used in exactly the way Andreas describes. Not this one, obviously. Newsgroups may have served that purpose better in the past, I'm not sure. Various groups that have e-mail attached or e-mail lists that have newsgroups attached might also be better, now. For self-formed groups working to a common purpose, I'm not confident about IM and especially IRC, though, since there is no useful archive usually. And they depend on synchronous participation, something that lists and forums do not require. Wikis are still good. For putting together a forum where a group of folks work on specific tasks and threads, something like an ad hoc agreement on a Google+ circle might do the job these days. Instead of mailing lists, one subscribes to RSS feeds instead. (Likewise for defect-report systems, source-code-management systems, etc.) Bottom line, the antagonism between the folks who prefer lists and those who prefer forums is mystifying to me. I prefer lists because they integrate perfectly into my personal workflow and all of the conversations that matter to me. I think forums are superb in many ways, especially for people whose main communication resource is their web browser and who are in no position to be indoctrinated in some higher-ceremony arrangement. I don't have a browser open all of the time, I have my e-mail client open all of the time. But it does not do automatic send-receive (except for my @orcmid twitter stream, of course). - Dennis E. Hamilton tools for document interoperability, <http://nfoWorks.org/> [email protected] gsm: +1-206-779-9430 @orcmid -----Original Message----- From: Robert Holtzman [mailto:[email protected]] < http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201110.mbox/%[email protected]%3e> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 11:12 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Forum outage On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 08:16:19PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote: <http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201110.mbox/%[email protected]%3e> > Am 01.10.2011 22:13, Robert Holtzman wrote: > <http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201110.mbox/%[email protected]%3e> > >On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 07:47:31PM +0200, Andreas Säger wrote: > > <http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201109.mbox/%[email protected]%3e> > >>Am 30.09.2011 18:35, Doug wrote: > >><http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-users/201109.mbox/%[email protected]%3e> > >>>If anybody cares, I *hate* forums. With a list, you get a bit of > >>>everything, > >> > >>If it is an emotional question then it is about the end user's > >>emotions rather than yours. > >>End user support by mailing lists simply does not work. The > >>acceptance is extremely low. Same with the overall quality of > >>service due to the technical restrictions. > > > >Could you please expand on your objection to mailing lists? > > > > Mailing lists are perfect when you have to be sure that a closed > group of co-workers share the same information at any time. > This has nothing to do with end user support. > I know the mailing lists for end users of OOo since many years. The > quality of service is very poor. Lots of wrong/missing/misleading > answers, very high noise level, no screenshots, no search facility, > no text formatting, not even decent hyperlinks and most importantly: > no administration. Every piece of spam and bullshit has been copied > to all subscribers when you read it, so there is nothing to move, to > fix, to remove, which on the other hand makes a mailing list > superior for closed work groups with a high level of liability. The things you're ranting about, with the exception of screen shots, have nothing to do with whether it's a forum or list. Screen shots can be worked around on a list with the use of a pastebin. As far as search facilities, it depends on what list. Some have exellent ones. Every list I subscribe to has hyperlinks. > > > > >Again, could you please expand on your opinion? > > > > On user.services.openoffice.org you won't find a single single spam > posting, a single off topic thread, duplicate, unsubscribe rant, > heavy trolling, meta-topic about using the forum, no violation of > netiquette or forum rules that survives longer than one or two > hours. > Instead you can find the answers for hundreds of frequently asked > questions with screenshots, hyperlinks, clearly structured and > formatted tutorials and example documents. Depends on the forum just as it depends on the list you're talking about. I have no idea what you're going on about. I think you're either a troll or you just like to rant. Either way, be my guest. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. 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