Comments in line: On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 4:39 PM Mychaela Falconia <[email protected]> wrote: > > Kurtis Heimerl wrote: > > > I'd consider Rhizomatica the most successful, but we have run Osmocom > > with paying subscribers a few times, notably in Indonesia > > Thanks for the links. I imagine that most people on this list probably > already know that my use case is very different, but perhaps some > people might not know, so let me restate it briefly: I don't have the > luxury of operating in a remote/rural geographical area that has NO > existing cellphone services, none of any G at all - instead I live in > an area where every square mm of Earth's surface is carped-bombed with > super-strong 4G and 5G signals from at least 3 major carriers. Given > this super-strong major carrier coverage, all mainstream sheeple with > their 4G/5G smartphones are perfectly happy and satisfied, creating > zero demand for community cellular networks. Instead the only people > who desire a community cellular network are those who have drawn a > line in the sand, said a resolute 'NO!' to all those later-G technologies > and want GSM/2G service instead, for use with either historical > handsets, specifically procured and acquired for nostalgia purposes, > or self-made ones.
Mayhaps, but we're currently running an LTE-based community network here in Seattle (https://seattlecommunitynetwork.org/) and seeing uptake from exactly those types of folks. > > > However, each included significant engineering efforts that may be > > useful for your own deployment. It can definitely be done and we used > > a bulk SIP-Based Voice/SMS provider (Nexmo, now vonage) to do it. > > I noticed one element of strangeness: in all of your articles you > talked about the difficulty of acquiring real phone numbers in the > operating country's PSTN numbering plan. In the first paper you wrote > how a deployment in Indonesia used Swedish phone numbers instead of > native Indonesian ones, in the second paper you wrote about your > specific partner MNO lending you not only spectrum, but also > maintaining a chokehold over your pool of phone numbers, and in the > last LTE paper you wrote about specifically opting out of standard > VoLTE because getting phone numbers and PSTN interconnection is so > difficult and expensive. Numbers outside the US can vary quite a bit in their availability and cost. It should be a lot easier in the US. For VoLTE, there are other technical concerns that remain unsolved; I agree access to numbers is not an issue. > > Why is it that your experiences with obtaining real phone numbers and > PSTN interconnection are so sharply different from mine? Right now I > can go to bulkvs.com and buy USA phone numbers (real 10-digit NANP, in > the same numbering space as decades-old land lines and mainstream cell > carriers) for something like $0.06 (yes, 6 _cents_) per month, with > super-cheap PSTN interconnection included - super-cheap meaning > $0.0003 (yes, count the zeros) per minute for inbound and $0.004 per > minute for outbound. When I saw these prices for the first time about > a month ago, I was shocked, I couldn't believe my eyes that traditional > PSTN interconnection can be _this_ cheap - but there it is... Is this > type of deal a USA-only phenomenon? Are you saying that similar deals > for PSTN interconnection with real phone numbers are not available in > other countries that are primary targets for building community > cellular networks? They seem like a good vendor and things have gotten a lot better than the times when we were producing that work. > > Labs <[email protected]> wrote: > > > The numbering format is the last of your issues. > > Yet in the context of this technical mailing list, providing correct > user experience with respect to phone numbers is one of the reasons > why I need to develop custom sw beyond what Osmocom already provides. > At first glance, in both OsmoHLR and OsmoMSC the legacy term "extension" > has already been replaced with the standard term MSISDN - thus my > first naive thought was that I could enter NANP numbers as MSISDNs in > the OsmoHLR database and have these MSISDNs seen natively by OsmoMSC. > But the way in which the MSISDN concept is implemented in OsmoHLR/MSC > currently disregards all notions of TON and NPI (type of number, > numbering plan indicator), instead treating the MSISDN datum as a raw > string of digits only. > > With all mainstream cell operators in USA, a user can dial a domestic > number in 3 ways: as just 10 digits NPANXXxxxx, as 1NPANXXxxxx, or as > +1NPANXXxxxx, and the network is smart enough to recognize all three > as valid ways of dialing the same number. I insist on implementing > the same user experience on my Themyscira Wireless network - but > neither OsmoMSC's built-in MNCC nor its built-in SMSC are smart enough > to handle such number nuances, hence I will need to replace both the > built-in MNCC and the built-in SMS routing mechanism with my own > external implementations. (I am not smart enough to implement a patch > to OsmoHLR and OsmoMSC that would handle TON and NPI for MSISDN > generally, beyond my own specific use case, hence I am going for > external augmentation instead.) > > > If you provide a > > telephone service with a real number for dial out/in you must have also > > emergency services working. > > bulkvs.com provides E911 support, and so do most VoIP/SIP providers. > > > What is happening if your subscriber is outside of your coverage area > > and wants dial another number? > > Naturally, providing any kind of service outside of coverage area is > impossible: even in those areas where T-Mobile have not shut down their > GSM service yet, they will never allow my made-up IMSIs (starting with > my own made-up PLMN code, *not* stepping on any assigned one) to > register on their network - hence no services of any kind are possible > then. > > > Maybe you will need some local roaming > > agreements with the big operators. > > The same T-Mobile who are itching to kill the last remains of their > GSM network? I don't see how there can be any possibility of a roaming > agreement with them - if the sole reason for We the People needing to > set up our own community GSM networks is because T-Mobile are killing > theirs, they certainly won't be inclined to give us roaming access to > that same GSM network of theirs which they are itching to kill. > > > There is a reason why the other networks running opensource mobile > > networks like Rhizomatica don't use real numbering plan and keep the > > networks isolated. > > Yes, they have their reasons - but I continue to argue that their > approach would not be right in USA. Even if someone were building a > network in a desert location with no existing services, as opposed to > my very different use case, as long as that desert is located > somewhere within USA where NANP phone numbers would be culturally > appropriate, I argue that they should give their subscribers > "the real thing". > > I imagine one could probably connect to/with USA phone numbers from > anywhere in the world, by connecting over the Internet to a USA-based > VoIP provider, but it would "feel wrong" to do it outside of USA, it > would be like those Swedish phone numbers in Indonesia. > > > Good luck, I hope you succeed. > > "I hope you succeed" is rather meaningless without defined criteria > for what counts as success. For the present phase of my project, I > have set a very low bar for what I would count as success. In the > present phase of my project, my goal is to demonstrate some really, > really old phones to an assembled audience and show them working. > Right now the oldest phone in my collection is a recently acquired > Ericsson I888 (late 1990s), and I already have it connecting > successfully to my Themyscira GSM network with my own Themyscira SIM - > FCSIM1 programmed with my own fc-simtool. But without outside > connectivity it does not "feel real" - hence my continued work to > implement the necessary software for outside connectivity. > > Now imagine me handing this ancient 1990s phone (big and heavy as a > brick) to an audience member and inviting that person to call someone > with it - *that* would be impressive, and getting to that stage is > what I am currently working on. All of the necessary work is software, > _not_ political or regulatory etc. > > > Let us know the results. > > Once I have some working code implemented, I will upload it to a > Mercurial repository on freecalypso.org and post the link. > > M~
