Ari, Sorry, I think I must have understood this in the past at some point, but senility encroaches ;-p
Can you remind me why we need freshness in the OpenCog core, if we have VersionHandles there? What does freshness handle that VH's do not; or, what does freshness handle much more simply or efficiently than VH's? thx ben On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Ari Heljakka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Hi Joel, > > unfortunately there is absolutely no way in which you can, in a reasonable > time, complete the porting by changing all PLN code to use the VersionHandle > system. > > With luck, I might be able to do it myself with 3-4 days of work. For > someone not experienced with various subtleties of PLN, even for a pro like > you, less than 3 weeks would sounds optimistic. > > I suggest that, instead, the fresh-parameter is introduced to OpenCog core > (with default = false), and it is implemented so that its functionality > mimics the functionality of the fresh parameter in NM core. That should not > prove to be much work, and it may have uses beyond PLN. (It wasn't created > for PLN in the 1st place.) > > The "fresh" parameter is a feature that is fundamentally required by PLN. > > The point of freshness is that you can have multiple instances of an atom > with identical structure. And, when you add a new atom to atom space, PLN > wants to have the option to either force it to be independent of previous > such atoms, or to allow its integration to existing such atoms. > > If you don't want to or can't change the OpenCog atom space interface to > support that, then you may be able to simulate it in the AtomTableWrapper. > > In principle VHs can mimic the "freshness" conceptually, but in practise > it'll be hell of a job to convert between these 2 representations of the > same thing. > > Regarding the template debugging, I've always found Linux C++ dev tools to > be a time-drain for serious stuff (which is why I use Visual Studio which > handles template debugging etc. in a nice way), but there _is_ a semi-useful > tool for tackling the template naming debug issue for Linux, but it is > suitable only for parsing the output of the compiler/linker I think, not > IIRC real-time debugging. I can ask if anyone remembers the name of it if > you wish. > > -A > > > Joel Pitt wrote: > >> Hi Ari and Ben, >> >> I've got to stage where PLN compiles, the shell runs and Tester gets >> to a certain point before an assertion fails regarding a Handle not >> being "real" (which from my understanding means it has a Handle less >> than the number of atom types). I don't have enough holistic >> understanding of PLN to debug this immediately... although I could >> step through from the beginning, it'd be slow. >> >> The only thing that I *expect* to be breaking things is adding atoms >> to the AtomSpace. In OpenCog there is no fresh or managed parameter, >> thus I had to remove those from the addAtom calls to get it to >> compile. Removing the fresh=true bug was also one of the next tasks >> for me to tackle... thus my inclination is to try to fix that bug >> first before trying to trace the exact cause of the un"real" Handles >> in places they shouldn't be. >> >> From memory, I think the plan was to use VersionHandles? Is this correct? >>> >> >> I've been trying to trawl through my gmail archives to glean insights >> about the problem, and while I'm slowly getting there, any advice or a >> point in the right direction would be appreciated. Also... if there >> are particularly important conversations or wiki pages that I should >> read, feel free to point me at those. >> >> Oh, and lastly, does anyone have any suggestions of tools for parsing >> and understanding template while debugging? With each Vertex being a >> somewhat long boost::variant it can get tedious to comprehend the >> output... Currently I'm just using Vim and gdb along with a .gdbinit >> hack that allows one to print all the stlcontainers more nicely. >> >> Thanks, >> >> J >> >> > > -- > Ari Heljakka > CTO > Dream Broker Ltd > > Tekniikantie 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 02150 Espoo +358 40 568 2420 > Finland www.dreambroker.fi > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson
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