Inline, as usual. --- Please execuse my brevity/typos. Sent from my mobile device. --- Ahmed Mekkawy CEO | Founder www.SpirulaSystems.com On Jan 7, 2014 10:41 AM, "Rayna" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi, > > Thanks for swift response. More - inline. > > > 2014/1/6 Ahmed Mekkawy <[email protected]> >> >> [snip] >> >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Rayna <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hey again, >>> >>> Building upon this exchange and emails piling up in the sister thread makes me think (correct me if I'm wrong): >>> * for you, Mekkawy, and for most of the people who've spoken so far, OE is and has to continue to be a think tank/lobby/advocacy org (you name it); >> >> Not really, everything is discussable and modifiable. > > > Ok, so what about setting up a pad (or using the wiki) to start putting together ideas?
We have wiki.openegypt.net . It's not active, though. Feel free to initiate something and I'll join. > > >>> >>> * the only types of community you envision are either a GLUG (sorry, I always use GNU/Linux User Group) or a developers' group. >> >> These are the only types of communities that currently exist in Egypt, not the only types that can be. > > > Yes, but beware the way you express it cuz it sounds like it's this or that, khalas. And given that the rare co-founders who've spoken out so far keep this rhetoric consistent, it reads (from afar) that no other options are ok. I suppose this a miscommunication. I think it sounds like that cause most people - including me - don't know about all possibilities.x > >>> >>> >>> Which gets me thinking: >>> 1/ why would you artificially impose boundaries such as what activities define or not a community? >> >> I didn't. The community defines its activities not vice versa. > > > See my remark above. > > >>> >>> 2/ why is the alleged institutional work only done in favour of open source and not in favour of open knowledge in general? >> >> Open knowledge is important indeed, it's just a matter of focus, not ignorance. > > > Elaborate? I mean that OE isn't focusing on open knowledge for no specific reason except that the activities that happened went this way. This is my personal opinion anyway cause this is the first time this topic gets discussed. > > >>> >>> 3/ what exactly is understood under "open source", who's set up these limits and when did the community (ie, the people on this list to start with) agree with? >> >> I don't understand what limits you mean. Usually we talk about FOSS/FLOSS, not open source. When this started it was under the slogan "For an Egyptian strategy towards FOSS", and it was kicked off in a meeting. > > > :) Don't be naive, Mekkawy. A slogan is just this: a slogan. > > My question is a different way of speaking of ethical guidelines and values the community abinds to. The link you pointed the other day reads more like a NGO rules, not as a charter wich values the community must respect and act in agreement with. Ethics-wise you can imagine different things that preserve the principles the community is said to protect, e.g. not using proprietary software for the NGO and community activities. (There was a discussion several months ago about this if I recall correctly.) OK I got you now. Short answer is that we didn't agree on ethical guidelines for this communities, and I may add most communities in Egypt. The link I pointed to was the charter of EGLUG, which is a dead community, and I pointed to it only as an example. > > >>> >>> 4/ what's exactly the job of a community coordinator (== what tasks was the person having this position supposed to accomplish) and until when is the respective contract going? >> >> It's not a _community_ coordinator, the position is about admin work for the NGO mainly, meetings coordination, official papers handling, ... etc. It's a monthly contract so it can be stopped anytime with a 30 days notice. > > > Oh ok, that's clearer. To be more frank, we expect that this full time coordinator, as hired from within the community, to pass her free time helping in the community in various aspects. Anyway this isn't an official task, and didn't happen. > >> >> >>> >>> >>> My question #1 actually relates to the different activities envisioned (or not) here. Outreach, event organisation, content production, training, hacking, etc. are all activities that communities do. It may sound blunt and harsh, but I fail to believe you'll achieve great change on the ground only through drafting strategies and white papers. France is the only country in the EU -- and perhaps in the world -- where a law imposes a preference for FLOSS solutions for all publicly funded research institutions. The law was not just voted, but also promulgated which means each and every of these institutions has to apply it. I let you guess the outcome (hint: none does). >> >> I totally agree. Strategies and similar stuff doesn't change anything by itself. The idea of OpenEgypt is to facilitate other communities (and even FOSS companies) work. If other communities stopped working then OE is useless. It's more of completing other communities work, not replacing them. So if we are talking about something like an installfest, OE should help the other community that does it, but not do it by itself, or at least that was the main idea. > > > I disagree. If tomorrow I want to be part of the NGO and -- as such -- hold an installparty in Tantaa cuz I happen to be there for holidays, who will stop me? Or do I have to wait for a community to be kicked off in Tantaa to be allowed to hold such an event? Sorry, but that's insane :) > > This is where I speak about limits. I really fail to understand why you insist on constraining and limiting the scope and reach of activities. The basics when it boils down to sharing information is that people do it as they see fit. If it goes through an event, ok. If it goes through community building, ok. If it goes through translat'party, ok. Ofc, it's always better to involve people from other communities, but the two are not exclusive in any way. Ofcourse nobody will 'stop' an activity. Let me elaborate more about why I'm talking about OE this way. We have various communities that are somehow active, like ubuntu-eg, fedora Egypt, CAT, EGJUG, Troos, and others. The point here is to make OE complementing the landscape, instead of being a replacement for these communities somehow. I was concerned about precieving OE as an ambrella over the other communities, and the possible flame wars and conflicts that may arise. This paragraph is my personal opinion as well, not talking on behalf of anyone here. > > >>> >>> [snip] >>> Thus, you understand my confusion when I read emails where people spill ink (actually bits) telling how the only community that could make it is a think tank to draft national strategies that mention how lovely it'd be to use open source and cloud (thus, SaaS) in the country. Apologies if this sounds blunt and harsh, but that's delirious :) It doesn't mean your work is bullshit, it means that limiting the possible options is insane and irrational when there's a heavy bunch of challenges ahead. In no way should someone be put-off from participating but this is what happens (and this is a part of the rationale behind your _mea culpa_, Mekkawy). >> >> OE shouldn't be the only (or even major) community in Egypt. It's just taking an empty role. Other communities can focus on other stuff. OE isn't about covering all needed roles. If someone here thinks that writing strategies only can help, then it's delirious indeed. >> side note: OE isn't advocating cloud and SaaS. > > > Ofc, in an ideal context, OE shouldn't be neither the major nor the only community. But situation being what it is, it may very well end up being so. And it is even more important in this case that this org has very diversified activities. I believe this is valid, but currently we have other communities alive. May be this can happen by an initiative for merging them all someday? Dunno. > > Let the community grow organically. It'll take time but if you kick off an org and ask for entry permits (that is, that people comply to do just certain things and not others with this org), then this won't work. You'll have an org, that's for sure, it'll be more or less alive and more or less consanguinous, but it won't be a FLOSS community. I understand your point. I admit we got a problem here. Not sure how to fix it, though. > > Last but not least: I am not sure how much OE is or is not advocating cloud and SaaS. There have been announcements, invitations, etc. on this list for OE to participate to exhibitions and events that were exclusively focused on this. Given that neither the principles the NGO defends are clearly set up, nor accounts have been published from such events, I have no basis to say whether yes or no OE supports/promotes cloud and SaaS. I agree on the lack of info, which no clear opinion is formed about anyway. But come on, anyone is announcing anything he likes. There was an announcement for a blackberry event, but you didn't think that OE supports blackberry :-) > > >>> >>> Being part of the civil society that stands its grounds when it boils down to policy-making is one thing. Limit and lock such activities as the only possible way forward is dangerous -- and here I agree with Eslam's stance that such deeds are contrary to the values that make up FLOSS. >>> >>> >>> I am sorry my Arabic doesn't allow me to explicit these thoughts, yet I believe the language won't put people off and others will chim in anyway so that the discussion remains constructive. >> >> I believe everybody here will be able to understand your emails, except that I had to google for "mea culpa" :) >> >> I hope I made things a little bit clearer..I highly appreciate your emails. It's not harsh in any way :) > > > Yeah, lingua franca rulz :p Lol, my wife is a french translator. I hear lots of francais a la maison :-) All the best, Ahmed > > Have a good day, > Rayna > >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> Rayna >>> >>> >>> 2014/1/5 Ahmed Mekkawy <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> Hey Rayna, >>>> >>>> Happy new year for you. Actually what I sent till now is more of headlines, but I can't say the details of 2 years in an email, will keep sending whatever comes to my mind. >>>> >>>> Well OpenEgypt isn't a users group, nor a developers group, if that's what you are asking about. I didn't actually classify it, but yeah the current role is more of a think tank and interfacing FOSS communities with the government. It's valid to do more roles later, but it's meant that it shouldn't be competing with users group, but rather empowering them. I see the future of OE to include planning, coordinating between users groups, even lobbying, or all/none of that. No solid idea yet. >>>> >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> Ahmed Mekkawy >>>> CTO | Founder >>>> Spirula Systems >>>> www.spirulasystems.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Rayna <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey, >>>>> >>>>> Happy New Year and all dat. Thanks for the details, Mekkawy. >>>>> >>>>> In light of recent clarifications, my question remains: is OpenEgypt supposed to be a community or is it supposed to be a think tank? Because thus far I see many features for a think tank but (nearly?) none for a community. >>>>> >>>>> Rayna >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014/1/5 Ahmed Mekkawy <[email protected]> >>>>>> >>>>>> اسلام، فيه ايميل تانى اتبعت امبارح، اقراه من فضلك >>>>>> >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> Ahmed Mekkawy >>>>>> CTO | Founder >>>>>> Spirula Systems >>>>>> www.spirulasystems.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Eslam Farid <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> مازلت في انتظار الكلام هنا.. >>>>>>> جزاكم الله خيرا. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, 1 January 2014 13:53:35 UTC+3, Eslam Farid wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> شكرا يا أحمد وفي انتظار اني أسمع منك، وأرجوا فعلا انك تكتب بالعربي .. >>>>>>>> جزاك الله خيرا. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 31 December 2013 19:57:45 UTC+3, Ahmed Mekkawy wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll try in this email to dump my info about this topic, so please ask me if anything seems to be missing. In anything other than official info, I'm saying my own openion, not OpenEgypt's official one. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> لو أى شخص متضايق من كلامى باللغة الانجليزية يقول. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OpenEgypt is an NGO under establishment, with currently 10 founders after the loss of Ali Shaath. This shouldn't be mixed with MCIT FOSS strategy group, which consists of governmental employees, private sector representative, and independant consultants. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First, OpenEgypt founders are as follows, in alphabetical order, with due respect: >>>>>>>>> - The late Ali Shaath. >>>>>>>>> - Ahmed ElEzabi. >>>>>>>>> - Ahmed ElHefnawy. >>>>>>>>> - Ahmed Hussein. >>>>>>>>> - Ahmed Mekkawy. >>>>>>>>> - Diaa Radwan. >>>>>>>>> - Haitham Nabil. >>>>>>>>> - Manal Hassan. >>>>>>>>> - Mahmoud Tawfik. >>>>>>>>> - Naglaa Rizk. >>>>>>>>> - Sherif ElKassas. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not sure that I'm the best one to introduce everyone of the founders, so I invite everyone of them to introduce himself. But in short I believe that they are all great minds with diversed backgrounds. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Currently we have one employee in OpenEgypt, which is Samar Ali, in the role of coordinator. The first coordinator, which was Ahmed Koraiiem, was working on volunteeraly basis. The place is donated from ADEF, the NGO founded by the late Ali Shaath. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The fund for OE is till now solely by the founders donations. The agreed amount at first was EGP 5k per founder. Currently OE had spent slightly more than 50% of its money. Spendings are only on Samar's salary, the paper work for establishment of the NGO, and similar stuff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The official name for the NGO is الجمعية المصرية للبرمجيات الحرة, and in english it's OpenEgypt. Till the moment the official establishment was not complete, and here we are back to square zero as the papers has to be all remade, cause of the loss of Ali. But I expect the paper to be smoother as we already got some approvals that should be automatically granted this time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The aim of OE isn't clearly written yet, we are currently working on defining the missing points. The main idea is clear though, it's to work on a strategic direction to create a FOSS ecosystem in Egypt, even if it's a small one in the beginning. This means that OE shouldn't be redoing what users group does, it should rather focus on coordinating their efforts, work with government entities and private sector, and of course universities. This work should be targeting the decision makers rather than targeting users base. This isn't a preference for change, but it's a trial to complete what user groups does and open the closed doors for them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> About MCIT group, will send this tomorrow isA. Seems I will have the habit of a daily email to this group >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>>> Ahmed Mekkawy >>>>>>>>> CTO | Founder >>>>>>>>> Spirula Systems >>>>>>>>> www.spirulasystems.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "Change l'ordre du monde plutôt que tes désirs." >>>>> >>>>> http://me.hatewasabi.info/ >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "Change l'ordre du monde plutôt que tes désirs." >>> >>> http://me.hatewasabi.info/ >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > "Change l'ordre du monde plutôt que tes désirs." > > http://me.hatewasabi.info/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "OpenEgypt" group. 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