Hi all, It's been a while since I've seen it but I think Pablo Pazos has some quite good work for that topic on EHRServer, at least for subsumption [ https://ppazos.github.io/cabolabs-ehrserver/ mentions "Support of SNOMED CT Expressions on openEHR queries (simplifies complex queries)"]. There is also a demonstration video on YouTube. With regards to binding to the model, though, things might be tricky.
Cheers, Ricardo Gonçalves. Em seg, 19 de nov de 2018 às 17:21, < openehr-technical-requ...@lists.openehr.org> escreveu: > Send openEHR-technical mailing list submissions to > openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > openehr-technical-requ...@lists.openehr.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > openehr-technical-ow...@lists.openehr.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of openEHR-technical digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Postcoordinated terminology expressions in openEHR > (Thomas Beale) > 2. Re: Postcoordinated terminology expressions in openEHR > (Ian McNicoll) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:38:52 +0000 > From: Thomas Beale <thomas.be...@openehr.org> > To: openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org > Subject: Re: Postcoordinated terminology expressions in openEHR > Message-ID: <c688e4de-3423-7ae3-4a64-7ad8a469b...@openehr.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > I mostly agree with Ian, but with the small caveat that for very > specific and well-known cases such as body laterality, you just /might > consider/ post-coordination on body site e.g. > > * 56459004 |foot structure| : 272741003 |laterality| = 7771000 |left|) > > However, even here, laterality often seems to be divided out in various > ways depending on what you are talking about. E.g. anything to do with > eyes, the whole exam is per-eye rather than each finding being marked as > being on the 'eye, left' or 'eye, right'. In other places, 'left' and > 'right' don't even have symmetrical meanings e.g. the heart (think > left-branch bundle etc). > > Nevertheless, for those body sites where findings are reported as being > on some X+left or right, I think we probably should consider > post-coordination of the site and the laterality at some point. For > everything else, it's a nice idea but forget it in data models. > > Where it could be used is via a /mapping formula /for multiple data > points, e.g. in an archetype. The archetype data would be defined > populated as a structure (as today), but a 'post-coordination formula' > that indicates how to bind the values of particular coded elements > together to obtain a Snomed expression could be used to generate such > expressions from the data, for consumption by inference engines. This is > the only place where they can be usefully computed with, in my opinion. > > Such a formula might look like this: > > * 47933007 |$pain_finding| : 363698007 |finding_site| = ( > $finding_site: 272741003 |laterality| =? $laterality) > > where $pain_finding, $finding_site and $laterality are bound to paths in > the archetype. > > If the formula were evaluated, it might give this: > > * 22253000 |pain| : 363698007 |finding site| = ( 56459004 |foot > structure| : 272741003 |laterality| = 7771000 |left| ) > > With minor adjustments in the binding part of the ADL2 grammar, such > formula bindings could be accommodated fairly easily I would think. > > Note: this is speculation, and has never been tried as far as I know. > Even if it does, it's only for SNOMED, unless the SNOMED model of > post-coordinated expressions is adopted by other terminologies... > > - thomas > > > On 19/11/2018 13:32, Ian McNicoll wrote: > > Basically - don't!! > > > > The UK has been trying to do this for over 20 years without success. > > It is a terminologists?dream but implementers?nightmare. > > > > Make a start with high-value use cases e.g Allergy agent "Allergic > > to?+ causative?agent" - so that you do not have to generate a new > > Snomed code for every potential allergen. > > > > Perhaps consider laterality. Beyond that, you risk delaying SNOMED?CT > > implementation, as has happened in the UK. > > > > Post-coordination is like nuclear fusion - a damned good idea but > > tricky to do without blowing everything up. > > > > Ian > > Ian > > Dr Ian McNicoll > > mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 > > office +44 (0)1536 414994 > > skype: ianmcnicoll > > email: i...@freshehr.com <mailto:i...@freshehr.com> > > twitter: @ianmcnicoll > > > > > > Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org > > <mailto:ian.mcnic...@openehr.org> > > Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. > > Director, HANDIHealth CIC > > Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 13:20, Bakke, Silje Ljosland > > <silje.ljosland.ba...@nasjonalikt.no > > <mailto:silje.ljosland.ba...@nasjonalikt.no>> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > We?ve recently started an informal and practically oriented > > regular contact with the Norwegian SNOMED CT NRC. One of the > > things they were interested in discussing was how to use > > postcoordinated SNOMED CT (expression constraint language) > > expressions with openEHR, which I know nothing about. Does anyone > > have any knowledge about or experience with this? > > > > Kind regards, > > *Silje Ljosland Bakke* > > > > ** > > > > Information Architect, RN > > > > Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes > > Nasjonal IKT HF, Norway > > > > Tel. +47 40203298 > > > > Web: http://arketyper.no <http://arketyper.no/>/ Twitter: > > @arketyper_no <https://twitter.com/arketyper_no> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > openEHR-technical mailing list > > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > > <mailto:openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org> > > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > openEHR-technical mailing list > > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > -- > Thomas Beale > Principal, Ars Semantica <http://www.arssemantica.com> > Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare > <https://intermountainhealthcare.org/> > Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation > <http://www.openehr.org> > Chartered IT Professional Fellow, BCS, British Computer Society > <http://www.bcs.org/category/6044> > Health IT blog <http://wolandscat.net/> | Culture blog > <http://wolandsothercat.net/> | The Objective Stance > <https://theobjectivestance.net/> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20181119/0d1bc9a0/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:53:30 +0000 > From: Ian McNicoll <i...@freshehr.com> > To: For openEHR technical discussions > <openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org> > Subject: Re: Postcoordinated terminology expressions in openEHR > Message-ID: > <CAG-n1KyioGVnfV0PDmZEFN= > dtmtks1eddjnxjy5yc0g87t_...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Yes agree laterality is another potentially high value case. > > They should probably talk to the CIMI folks. Stan Huff has a good an idea > as anyone of both the potential and pitfalls of complex terminology > handling. I suspect that really held CIMI back at a critical moment but at > least they have a good understanding of te challenges. > > In spite of decades of attempts, I don't know of any national program that > is using post-coordination to any extent. > > Ian > Dr Ian McNicoll > mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 > office +44 (0)1536 414994 > skype: ianmcnicoll > email: i...@freshehr.com > twitter: @ianmcnicoll > > > Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org > Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. > Director, HANDIHealth CIC > Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 15:38, Thomas Beale <thomas.be...@openehr.org> > wrote: > > > I mostly agree with Ian, but with the small caveat that for very specific > > and well-known cases such as body laterality, you just *might consider* > > post-coordination on body site e.g. > > > > - 56459004 |foot structure| : 272741003 |laterality| = 7771000 |left|) > > > > However, even here, laterality often seems to be divided out in various > > ways depending on what you are talking about. E.g. anything to do with > > eyes, the whole exam is per-eye rather than each finding being marked as > > being on the 'eye, left' or 'eye, right'. In other places, 'left' and > > 'right' don't even have symmetrical meanings e.g. the heart (think > > left-branch bundle etc). > > > > Nevertheless, for those body sites where findings are reported as being > on > > some X+left or right, I think we probably should consider > post-coordination > > of the site and the laterality at some point. For everything else, it's a > > nice idea but forget it in data models. > > > > Where it could be used is via a *mapping formula *for multiple data > > points, e.g. in an archetype. The archetype data would be defined > populated > > as a structure (as today), but a 'post-coordination formula' that > indicates > > how to bind the values of particular coded elements together to obtain a > > Snomed expression could be used to generate such expressions from the > data, > > for consumption by inference engines. This is the only place where they > can > > be usefully computed with, in my opinion. > > > > Such a formula might look like this: > > > > - 47933007 |$pain_finding| : 363698007 |finding_site| = ( > > $finding_site: 272741003 |laterality| = $laterality) > > > > where $pain_finding, $finding_site and $laterality are bound to paths in > > the archetype. > > > > If the formula were evaluated, it might give this: > > > > - 22253000 |pain| : 363698007 |finding site| = ( 56459004 |foot > > structure| : 272741003 |laterality| = 7771000 |left| ) > > > > With minor adjustments in the binding part of the ADL2 grammar, such > > formula bindings could be accommodated fairly easily I would think. > > > > Note: this is speculation, and has never been tried as far as I know. > Even > > if it does, it's only for SNOMED, unless the SNOMED model of > > post-coordinated expressions is adopted by other terminologies... > > > > - thomas > > > > On 19/11/2018 13:32, Ian McNicoll wrote: > > > > Basically - don't!! > > > > The UK has been trying to do this for over 20 years without success. It > is > > a terminologists dream but implementers nightmare. > > > > Make a start with high-value use cases e.g Allergy agent "Allergic to + > > causative agent" - so that you do not have to generate a new Snomed code > > for every potential allergen. > > > > Perhaps consider laterality. Beyond that, you risk delaying SNOMED CT > > implementation, as has happened in the UK. > > > > Post-coordination is like nuclear fusion - a damned good idea but tricky > > to do without blowing everything up. > > > > Ian > > Ian > > Dr Ian McNicoll > > mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 > > office +44 (0)1536 414994 > > skype: ianmcnicoll > > email: i...@freshehr.com > > twitter: @ianmcnicoll > > > > > > Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org > > Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. > > Director, HANDIHealth CIC > > Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 13:20, Bakke, Silje Ljosland < > > silje.ljosland.ba...@nasjonalikt.no> wrote: > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> > >> > >> We?ve recently started an informal and practically oriented regular > >> contact with the Norwegian SNOMED CT NRC. One of the things they were > >> interested in discussing was how to use postcoordinated SNOMED CT > >> (expression constraint language) expressions with openEHR, which I know > >> nothing about. Does anyone have any knowledge about or experience with > this? > >> > >> > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> *Silje Ljosland Bakke* > >> > >> > >> > >> Information Architect, RN > >> > >> Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes > >> Nasjonal IKT HF, Norway > >> > >> Tel. +47 40203298 > >> > >> Web: http://arketyper.no / Twitter: @arketyper_no > >> <https://twitter.com/arketyper_no> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> openEHR-technical mailing list > >> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > >> > >> > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > openEHR-technical mailing listopenEHR-technical@lists.openehr.orghttp:// > lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > > > -- > > Thomas Beale > > Principal, Ars Semantica <http://www.arssemantica.com> > > Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare > > <https://intermountainhealthcare.org/> > > Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation > > <http://www.openehr.org> > > Chartered IT Professional Fellow, BCS, British Computer Society > > <http://www.bcs.org/category/6044> > > Health IT blog <http://wolandscat.net/> | Culture blog > > <http://wolandsothercat.net/> | The Objective Stance > > <https://theobjectivestance.net/> > > _______________________________________________ > > openEHR-technical mailing list > > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > > > > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openehr.org/pipermail/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org/attachments/20181119/2ac763da/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing list > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of openEHR-technical Digest, Vol 80, Issue 12 > ************************************************* >
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