Agree, let's define the scope, create the WG and then we can have
discussions there.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 7:33 AM, Nat Sakimura <[email protected]> wrote:
> Will,
> You are right, but that will be incompatible with AX 1.0, and the
> prerequisite of the scope is that it should be backward compatible. I feel
> that keeping aliases is a small compromise for keeping the compatibility and
> flexibility.
> =nat
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Will Norris <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:27 PM, Nat Sakimura wrote:
>>
>> > (2009/11/18 15:04), Will Norris wrote:
>> >> On Nov 16, 2009, at 6:42 PM, Nat Sakimura wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> (2009/11/17 10:58), Will Norris wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2009, at 3:49 PM, Nat Sakimura wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Right. AX 1.1 is to be expedient so that it will remove the current
>> >>>>> acute
>> >>>>> pain.
>> >>>>> It should be minimalistic as to the spec change and to the
>> >>>>> implementation
>> >>>>> change.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> AX 2.0 will be more generic fix, and that is the place we should
>> >>>>> consider
>> >>>>> whole bunch of issues.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I agree that there should be discovery way of it in XRD/s for many
>> >>>>> use
>> >>>>> cases,
>> >>>>> but it seems to me to be in the territory of AX2.0.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Attached please find the first cut of AX1.1 Draft01.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> It looks like you have policy URL defined as an actual AX attribute?
>> >>>>  How would that work if the RP is sending the URL to the OP.  Doesn't it
>> >>>> need to be a standalone parameter like update_url is?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> In this 1.1 draft, I have added the capability for the fetch request
>> >>> to include "value"/"parameter".
>> >>> Thus, you can do something like:
>> >>>
>> >>> openid.ns.ax=http://openid.net/srv/ax/1.1
>> >>> openid.ax.mode=fetch_request
>> >>> openid.ax.type.policy_url=http://axschema.org/policy_url
>> >>> openid.ax.value.policy_url=http://examplerp.com/data_usage_policy.html
>> >>>
>> >> ahh, I missed that.  This actually brings up a bigger concern regarding
>> >> what features go into 1.1 versus 2.0.  During IIW, we talked about 
>> >> needing a
>> >> more robust message format, (even serialized XML or JSON was thrown 
>> >> about).
>> >>  I've heard all kinds of ideas for attached metadata to attributes in an 
>> >> AX
>> >> request...
>> >>
>> >>  - give me a verified email address
>> >>  - give me an email address that was verified using method X
>> >>  - tell me if the email address "[email protected]" belongs to this user
>> >>  - give me a payment token authorized for up to $50
>> >>
>> >> and I'm sure folks have many, many more.  In order to support these
>> >> kinds of scenarios, we will almost certainly need something richer than 
>> >> the
>> >> extended request format currently included in the 1.1 draft.  I'm a little
>> >> concerned about changing the message format for 1.1, and then turning 
>> >> around
>> >> and changing it again for 2.0.  (If others are okay with this prospect, 
>> >> and
>> >> it's just something I need to get over, that's fine)
>> >>
>> > I understand this concern, but on the other hand, I have got the feeling
>> > that it will not change too much either.
>> > I have got the feeling that it ends up as
>> >
>> > ax.type.<alias>=http://openid.net/spec/ax/2.0/json
>> > ax.type.value.<alias>=[json file]
>> >
>> > which is the same as we have now. Only the difference is that we are not
>> > any more using any other <alias>,
>> > and we will not need <alias>.count.
>> >
>> > Of course, we have to agree on how to express attributes in json format,
>> > agree on signature, etc. and these are the main things that we should be
>> > dealing with in AX 2.0. Then, the finer semantics / data format / etc.needs
>> > to be addressed in other WGs specifically for that purpose. CX WG is one
>> > example of such thing.
>> >
>> > Needless to say, if you wanted to use SAML assertion in it, you could do
>> > something like
>> >
>> > ax.type.<alias>=http://openid.net/spec/ax/2.0/saml/2.0
>> > ax.type.value.<alias>=[saml assertion]
>> >
>> > etc. as well.
>>
>> If you're going to do that, then why even keep the aliases around?  Why
>> not just have
>>
>> ns.ax = http://openid.net/specs/ax/2.0
>> ax = [json/xml file]
>>
>> That would be perfectly valid and avoid the overhead.  Now I'm not
>> actually suggesting we do this, because I don't think we have a clear
>> understanding of the requirements for AX 2.0.  But my point is, we may end
>> up with something drastically different from AX 1.0.  I'm actually okay with
>> that prospect, and kind of like the idea that we have the freedom to make
>> such a complete departure if we thinking it's warranted.  I'd hate to make a
>> hasty decision now, expecting that it will *probably* be compatible with
>> what we come up with in AX 2.0, only to find that it is actually a
>> hindrance.  I don't know that this is going to be a problem, but that's
>> exactly my point... we don't know.  So the fewer changes we make in AX 1.1,
>> the better, I think.
>>
>> -will
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Nat Sakimura (=nat)
> http://www.sakimura.org/en/
>
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>



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