I was already working on getting some screenshots of a security application
written in JFX (mentioned its development a few months ago). It's a purchasable
product, so screenshots should be possible. I'm only curious if it will make a
nice showcase, since it mainly is used to show camera images.
On 2013-07-28 02:38, Jonathan Giles wrote:
This is something that Jasper actually brought up just this morning with
Richard and I (wrt fxexperience hosting it). I suspect we may get something
underway in the coming weeks. Of course, it depends on the community getting in
touch with us and letting us talk about them - so much of the JavaFX world is
behind corporate firewalls, where talking about your work is generally frowned
upon. In any case, for those of you that can talk about your work, please email
one of us off-list.
-- Jonathan
Sent from a touch device. Please excuse my brevity.
"John C. Turnbull" <ozem...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
+1
Such a site could be very useful.
-----Original Message-----
From: openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net
[mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Daniel
Zwolenski
Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56
To: Pedro Duque Vieira
Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List
Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the Swing
Sightings
page) has been raised before and I think is a good one.
It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't up to it
in my
opinion.
Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience site as
it
partners nicely with the links of the week?
On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira
<pedro.duquevie...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co
How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section? Or does
it
not have the necessary requirements to be in it?
Thanks, best regards,
@John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with
references to
real world usecases.
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull
<ozem...@ozemail.com.au
wrote:
Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a criticism of
the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the entire
community, are doing an awesome job.
For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or actual) can
be
blown
away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really capable of.
We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras (whose
demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21). With Oracle
Ensemble
we
can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls and that
it at least supports very simple animations. With JFXtras Ensemble
we can see that very nice controls are possible but unfortunately
many of these are
of
a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you would
use in everyday business apps.
What else is there?
Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who frequently
post awesome controls and code snippets but we really need
something
that
brings
it altogether in a kick-arse showcase. Preferably a whole suite of
killer
apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of.
Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is absolutely
worth
it.
Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX or even
get a handle on its true potential. I can promise people that more
advanced things are "possible" but given that they write the
cheques, they need to see it for themselves.
And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites? There must be
big companies out there using it right?
In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous potential
for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see.
-jct
From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:zon...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12
To: John C. Turnbull
Cc: Richard Bair; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
+1
I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should use JFX
because of
a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to make it do
that (e.g. in enterprise space we have
http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html)
b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually using it,
or at least publicly saying they are using it
c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app deployment and
the
true cross-platform-ness of html
After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use it on a
real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with performance
(broad interpretation of the term, not 'framerate'), crippling
deployment and
auto
updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise button,
coming in
2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a lack of
best practices for things like how to do CAD-like diagrams (not so
much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input,
layering,
dragging, etc).
Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show in these
forums.
Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be the
platform I develop on, it has the potential to be awesome, but
things (that seem obvious and small to me) completely stop it from
being usable in a real world situation for me.
It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their guts out,
clearly
you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are small-ish
blocks
that
stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole lot of
effort
be
poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi platform
support (that's more important than iOS/Android, really?), web
deployment
patches,
or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about. Obviously
your priorities are coming from somewhere different to ours, but
the
way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that definitely adds
to
the frustration.
At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I actively
discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the area
that
has the
potential
to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete easier with
the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if that ends
up
working
(a
long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then it will
seep
back
into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop deployment
options will need to be improved before that's even a possibility.
I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target audience
for
JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who the
primary
target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any less
frustrating. I
keep
involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform somewhere
along
the
way but it's more of a hope than a belief.
So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to John's.
JavaFX
is
definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the types of
apps
I
build (e.g. consumer facing online systems, enterprise/backoffice
systems,
form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it will be,
but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas that
would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors (primarily
JavaScript based solutions) are improving rapidly in the areas
where
they have traditionally been weak.
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull <
ozem...@ozemail.com.au
<mailto:ozem...@ozemail.com.au> > wrote:
Hi Richard,
I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across as
really
ANGRY!
It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration.
I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to convince
my
employer that we should be using JavaFX. They ask me questions
like:
"What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did with JMF,
Java3D,
JOGL etc. ?"
I say:
"This is Oracle, not Sun."
They say:
"Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples out
there right?"
And I say:
"Sure, here's Ensemble."
They say:
"OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do simple
animations but what about more complex things like Flash?"
...hence the dancing cat reference.
It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just that they
need
to
see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle transitions. I
can't
even
prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats. They don't
have
the
resources to fund me to develop something more sophisticated but
they
tell
me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I tell
them)
then where are all the examples?
I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is
production
ready
and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable to
demonstrate
its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of people (and
I
mean
big companies) actually using it.
The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies in a
similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long term and that
it
is only
really
suitable for form based applications. Then of course there is the
whole
"HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another story...
So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests in
developing
a
true showcase application for JavaFX. Something that non-technical
people
(like managers who make decisions about where the money goes) can
look at it and go "wow!".
I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can show
them
with
JavaFX at the moment.
Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is from the
perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world problems and
people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites etc.) and
not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch.
It's quite the opposite actually.
I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX and have
many reasons both personal and professional as to why I want it to
be a
massive
success. As I have said before, there are plenty of people who
praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues that are
restricting its adoption. I just think we have to face these
issues
head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat industry.
-jct
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Bair [mailto:richard.b...@oracle.com
<mailto:richard.b...@oracle.com> ]
Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40
To: John C. Turnbull
Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
<mailto:openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net>
Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of
fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there that
can
be really impressive at times. I have not seen ONE such example
in
JavaFX!
Point to one?
Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall or movies
on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're not
interested in
the
3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly? Different people
(on this
list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's important
and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most people
would deride the dancing cat as being totally irrelevant to the
types of applications they're trying to build (the basis for much
of
flash animations is shape
morphing,
you can find some code here
https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764).
On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL. Drawing
25 million lines is just not something we can do right now,
especially in a resource constrained environment. I've already
commented on the memory overhead (which would continue to be an
issue even if the drawing part of the problem were solved).
I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is about 300k
line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc
comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is negligible on
the FX side, dirty opts
is
taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow.
PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms]
T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass
T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass
T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering
T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph
T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed
T10 (117 +105ms): Painted
Counters:
Nodes rendered: 306565
Nodes visited during render: 306565
If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the drawing would
be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing, I could
send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I had a
modern GL I could
do
LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms available
and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes don't
implement the
non-AA
path, and our AA involves software rasterization and uploading of
pixels, I
expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being spent
here.
Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that the entire
grid
is
being painted every time, even though visually it looks like only a
small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's really a
minor
thing, as
I
said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I
configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right now it is
totally not implemented (in NGShape):
public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) {
// We don't support aliased shapes at this time
}
The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this amazing
demo".
The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes. Where
does
the system start to fall over?".
Richard=
--
Pedro Duque Vieira
