On 22/04/2008, Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 06:35:28PM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Am Di 22. April 2008 schrieb Harald Welte: > > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 05:59:29PM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Am Mo 21. April 2008 schrieb Werner Almesberger: > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > For many countries there are ageold databases created by hobbyists > > doing > > > > > > antenna-spotting. In Germany, carrier O2 sends quite exact > > Gauss-Krueger > > > > > > coordinates on CBC 221 for each of his stations. > > > > > > > > > > Okay, that's good. So we can have a comprehensive geographical > database > > > > > we can put our "GSM n-space" in relation to. (Although no motivation > > > > > was ever stated, I'm assuming here that the goal of the whole > exercise > > > > > is to avoid using GPS. Thus we can't correlate vectors we measure in > > > > > GSM n-space to 2D or 3D real-world vectors we measure with GPS.) > > > > > > > > > > Is there something like openstreetmap with these antenna locations or > > > > > does one have to hunt and gather from scattered repositories ? > > > > > > > > Dunno... > > > > > > At least in Germany the location of the cellular towers (especially > > > combined with the information if they're GPRS, EDGE, UMTS or HSDPA) is > > > considered a trade secret by the operator. > > > > Quite obviously not for O2! They at least send Gauss-Krueger for every of > > their BTS, and you may receive this with any simple cellphone. So which > kinda > > secret is this then? > > the point is not what kind of actual secret it is. The point is that > you are working in a licensed radio band. licensed to the operator. The > operator can send data on this band all day long, unencrypted. As long > as you have no permission by the operator, you may not legally use that > data!
I assume that applies also to the data you can capture without registering to any network (i.e. the neighbouring cells list), possibly using a simple receiver on GSM frequency (rather than a full modem), just because it is licensed? Honestly I always thought radio band licenses only applied to people wanting to emit signal. > > > As long as you can legally acquire the info (you also might use a map and a > > photocamera with tagging), and it's not offensive nor copyrighted or mere > > false, you very usually may publish it whereever and in any amount you > like. > > the problem is that there is no legal way to acquire that information > unless you have explicit permission by the operator to use it. > > > For *sure* we will get away with fingerprinting like it's done with wifi > > positioning. > > no, wifi operates in unlicensed band and thus has a different world. > > There really is no point about arguing this. I have been active at the > brink of law and IT for a number of years now, and I state that I > believe there is a problem. > > I also believe that OpenMoko, Inc. should investigate this field > legally, possibly by having legal experts in the most important > jurisdictions of the target market look into the respective situation > with regard to their local laws. I think OpenMoko Inc. should simply not ship any BTS positions database. OpenMoko, Inc. included a GPS in the device for the purpose of geolocation and that's much more effective than a team of legal experts. However the users can probably take the risk. Regards -- Please do not print this email unless absolutely necessary. Spread environmental awareness.
