Hi Today, I had the "Pleasure" of being kicked from #OpenSim-dev, unfortunately I don't really understand why, and I would like to have an explanation, so I can avoid that behaviour in the future:
Here is a transcript of the relevant logs: (16:05:50) diva: otherwise, if it's a product thing, leave it out of core and let different product designers do differernt things (16:05:52) Melanie_t: not per instance (16:06:08) diva: -1 (16:06:10) diva: sorry (16:06:15) Melanie_t: diva: what happened to peaceful coexistence? (16:06:16) Fly-Man-: Kirtai: 1 region can be a Mainland region (16:06:25) Fly-Man-: and another can be a Private Estate (16:06:31) Fly-Man-: that's why it's region based (16:06:32) diva: Melanie: the word "product" raises all sorts of red flags (16:06:40) Melanie_t: seemingly only with you (16:06:49) diva: where did this come from? (16:06:56) diva: I had never heard of this before (16:07:00) Melanie_t: since i believe, for all others here, it is a product, or something to be prodictized (16:07:01) diva: and I bet nobody knows either (16:07:07) diva: so let me raise this in -dev (16:07:27) Kirtai: all the configurations I see in Region.ini are technical, except this one. Feels like the wrong place (16:07:30) Melanie_t: we have regularly used the field names the LLUDP packets use (16:07:46) Melanie_t: more than 90% of out naming are derived from LLUDP (16:08:03) Melanie_t: i'm not attached to the name as such (16:08:07) Snowcrash: Melanie_t ... that sentiment about productized, is one of the very reasons I have against ever becoming part of core, or having my engine in core (16:08:17) Melanie_t: but i do wonder why you feel so strongly (16:08:19) diva: we have been focusing on technical aspects, and do have LL. Now they are focusing on Product aspects. Good for them (16:08:42) diva: I have no interest in Linden Lab's products (16:08:47) Melanie_t: Snowcrash: if you're allergic to making money, fine (16:08:50) diva: and I think OpenSim should stay away from them too (16:09:02) Melanie_t: diva: this is not about Linden lab's products (16:09:06) Kirtai: would it not be better to have that information in a seperate file associated with regions? (16:09:09) diva: because lots of people have completely difference ideas about products on top of OpenSim that have nothing to do with LL's product (16:09:19) Melanie_t: it's about a string that anyone making _a_ product can use to iidentify it (16:09:30) diva: no (16:09:40) Melanie_t: it's not limited to expressing linden lab's product choices (16:09:41) diva: It's a specific products related to region management (16:09:53) diva: it's very specific (16:10:01) Melanie_t: how so? (16:10:06) diva: it's in the region (16:10:12) Melanie_t: you can set it to "xyzzy" (16:10:21) Melanie_t: or "Faculty Zone" (16:10:25) diva: lots of producs that ppl may want to do have nothing to do with that (16:10:28) Melanie_t: it's not lindenish (16:10:33) diva: it is (16:10:43) Melanie_t: how is attaching a string to a region lindenish? (16:10:52) diva: that string is called ProductName (16:10:55) Melanie_t: so? (16:10:58) diva: it's Linden's business model (16:11:02) Melanie_t: it's not called LindenProductName (16:11:04) diva: they sell real estate (16:11:08) Melanie_t: i do, too (16:11:11) Melanie_t: am i linden? (16:11:13) diva: I don't (16:11:18) diva: lots of ppl don't either (16:11:23) Melanie_t: so why do you mean to invalidate my use case? (16:11:29) Melanie_t: or adam's (16:11:30) diva: you can do it as an extensionm (16:11:37) Melanie_t: as he also sells region hosting (16:12:13) diva: good for him and you. But let's not tie OpenSim to Linden Lab's business model (16:12:18) Snowcrash: the question is, "should the core, support this use case, or should it go to an out-of-core module" (16:12:31) Melanie_t: just the same i could say that i don't recognize a division between student and faculty assets because my use case doesn't include it (16:12:35) Snowcrash: like money (16:12:44) Hiro_Protagonist: the question, Snowcrash is why you are even participating in this conversation (16:12:45) Melanie_t: Snowcrash: it can't go to module (16:12:51) Melanie_t: that file is not accessible to modules (16:12:52) Fly-Man-: Snowcrash: That's the issue (16:12:58) osmantis: Bug #4268: nini.ini.iniexception ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4268 ): has been SUBMITTED. (16:12:58) Snowcrash: Hiro .. why can't I? (16:13:05) Hiro_Protagonist: as you have no interest in contributing to this project, and no interest in monetizing it (16:13:15) Fly-Man-: The RegionHandshake packet sends this info (16:13:17) Snowcrash: if you don't want other to participate, move it to the dev channel (16:13:19) Melanie_t: true, Snowcrash, you have declared you want no part of core (16:13:30) Fly-Man-: part of the packet is the sending of information (16:13:37) Hiro_Protagonist: this is the dev vhannel snowcrash (16:13:40) Melanie_t: and, incidentally, we can't change it's name int he regionHandshake, either (16:13:48) diva: If you want to develop a product that mimics LL's product, you can subclass RegionInfo (16:13:50) Snowcrash: last I heard, there was a core-dev channel (16:13:51) Fly-Man-: that Search uses to make a difference between Mainland / OpenSpace and Private Estates (16:14:14) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash, mind your manners and put a cork in it (16:14:20) Melanie_t: we've been here before. i'm astonished that you of all people would opt to cripple something (16:14:22) Kirtai: Melanie_t: would a seperate file that maps regions to categories (not just products) work? Or change the entry from products to SearchKeys? (16:14:31) Snowcrash: and .. Hiro, I have supplied patches to mantis (16:14:37) Melanie_t: Kirtai: the packet used is built in core (16:14:42) Melanie_t: the config file is read by core (16:14:48) diva: Melanie_t the word product makes me go to Mars and back (16:14:49) Melanie_t: all the plu,bing is core (16:14:59) Melanie_t: diva: why hang it all up on a word? (16:15:01) Kirtai: then what about my second suggestion? (16:15:06) diva: if we are supporting a "product" in core I want shares of it (16:15:07) Melanie_t: it's called that int he LL packet, we can't change that (16:15:08) Kirtai: Call it SearchKeys (16:15:18) Snowcrash: Hiro .. you need to ask yourself, do you want me to leave this channel or not (16:15:29) diva: if there is a technical justification for it, let's find it and call it the right word (16:15:43) osmantis: Bug #4268: nini.ini.iniexception ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4268 ): A NOTE has been added to this issue. (16:15:45) Kirtai: so it forms an extensible region search function instead of a restricted one (16:15:45) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash, you need to ask yourself whether I have sufficient patience this morning to avoid tossing you out of it (16:15:51) Melanie_t: it's, at the very least, an extra differentiation criterion in search (16:15:59) diva: in LL's search (16:16:00) Fly-Man-: diva: http://search.pastebin.com/d69c6d45 (16:16:02) Melanie_t: and since search is so coarse to start with, that is important (16:16:14) Snowcrash: if you think you gain something for the project by doing so, by all means (16:16:15) diva: that's Linden Lab;'s search (16:16:16) Melanie_t: diva: LL is still all the client we have (16:16:16) Fly-Man-: Above part, RegionHandle from SL (16:16:27) Fly-Man-: Below part, OpenSim response (16:16:28) Hiro_Protagonist: Diva, Melanie_T - time out for a sec (16:16:39) Hiro_Protagonist: lets not go to blows if you please (16:17:03) Hiro_Protagonist: 1st question: is it possible to use this packet at all without using lindenisms (16:17:12) Fly-Man-: Hiro_Protagonist: Yes (16:17:15) Melanie_t: hell no (16:17:22) Fly-Man-: The packet already exists (16:17:23) Melanie_t: Regionhandshake is a linden packet (16:17:28) Hiro_Protagonist: clearly it's in our interest to implement all the packets (16:17:33) Melanie_t: so it actually US a lindenism (16:17:37) Melanie_t: IS* (16:17:40) diva: I have no problem with the packets having that info (16:17:45) Hiro_Protagonist: obviously we dont want to be tied to linden specific uses of this particular packet (16:17:49) Fly-Man-: diva: Where is your problem then ? (16:18:01) Melanie_t: her problem is the work "Prodict" (16:18:11) Melanie_t: althogh 95% of core are commercially motivated (16:18:24) Hiro_Protagonist: Melanie_T: that's not really a defense (16:18:29) Melanie_t: by either being employed by a company that is commercially motivated (16:18:36) Melanie_t: or being in business related to opensim (16:18:40) diva: I have a problem with us using that info in core as "product" and for product purposes, which happens to be a Linden Lab product (16:18:43) Hiro_Protagonist: opensim is not for 95% of the users its for all 100% (16:18:56) diva: so if there'e a technical reason for that string in RegionInfo I would like to know what it is and I will support it (16:19:01) Melanie_t: but here 5% want to limit the abilities of the 95% (16:19:08) Fly-Man-: diva: then ask Linden Labs to change it to InfoSpace (16:19:09) Kirtai: may I make a suggestion? (16:19:10) Fly-Man-: or whatever (16:19:26) diva: Technical reason (16:19:29) Hiro_Protagonist: I really have difficulty believing that Mel (16:19:37) Fly-Man-: diva: Showing the right info in Search (16:19:44) Fly-Man-: usage of information for Caps message (16:19:47) Hiro_Protagonist: that's a Melanie_T opinion, not what Diva has expressed (16:19:50) Melanie_t: Hiro_Protagonist: believing what? (16:19:55) Melanie_t: the commercial motivation? (16:19:57) Fly-Man-: and telling the user where he is at (16:20:03) Fly-Man-: that's the technical reasons (16:20:03) Hiro_Protagonist: that 5% wants to limit the other 95% (16:20:34) Hiro_Protagonist: we dont have the packet implemented now, and I certainly am not missing the use of it in my enterprise (16:20:44) Fly-Man-: Hiro_Protagonist: The packet is already implemented (16:20:47) Fly-Man-: LONG time ago (16:20:47) Melanie_t: well, if that info should not be sent because the 5% here object to something that can be used for productization being included,, then it is so (16:20:52) Fly-Man-: but the value isn't send (16:21:03) Hiro_Protagonist: then it isnt fully implemented (16:21:06) Fly-Man-: the only change Melanie_t made (16:21:13) Fly-Man-: is to add the value to the Region example (16:21:20) Fly-Man-: so it can be used for ppl that want to use it (16:21:30) Fly-Man-: You're not asked when creating a new region (16:21:36) Fly-Man-: just when you set it up yourself (16:21:48) Fly-Man-: and at this moment, that value is not send in the RegionHandShake (16:21:55) Fly-Man-: as that's not implemented (16:21:57) diva: Melanie_t: I respect your busniess plans, but there's a limit. If you have a good technical reason for that extra field, please explain it. Otherwise it looks like we are here to work for free developing *your* product (16:22:00) Hiro_Protagonist: from an architectural perspective, I have to agree with Diva, I dont like this being in core (16:22:08) Kirtai: It sounds like what you want is a general region tagging and search facility, but definining it as Product is unnecessarily specific and limiting. (16:22:24) Melanie_t: diva: we are all sharing development foe each of our products (16:22:31) Hiro_Protagonist: that said, I am not antagonistic from product-centric things being a part of the broader work (16:22:52) Melanie_t: and regardless of a name (16:22:59) Melanie_t: that is precisely what we all do (16:23:09) Melanie_t: assist others in developing their product (16:23:22) diva: My product has nothing to do with Linden Lab's product. I don't ever plan on selling "OpenSpaces" or whatever those things are called. (16:23:23) Melanie_t: i just don't have an idealistic veneer over it. (16:23:39) Melanie_t: diva: you are NOT limited to using the string that way (16:23:41) Snowcrash: I would like to point out, that I am not here for the money (16:23:47) diva: call it something else, give me a technical reason (16:23:59) diva: a technical concept (16:23:59) Fly-Man-: Technical reason (16:24:08) Fly-Man-: If you implement it: (16:24:12) Hiro_Protagonist: I'm not at all sure why you are here at all Snowcrash (16:24:20) Fly-Man-: 'Search can work better as it knows the value" (16:24:29) Fly-Man-: "Search can make sure it finds the right info for you" (16:24:38) diva: Flye-Man- that;s a search that mimics Linden Lab's product (16:24:41) Fly-Man-: "Region owner knows what kind of region he/she has" (16:24:46) Fly-Man-: diva: Yupz (16:24:49) Snowcrash: maybe because I like the core idea LL has brought to metaverses (16:24:50) Hiro_Protagonist: RegionClassification works for me, or even OptionalRegionClassificationTag (16:24:52) Fly-Man-: and the problem with it is: (16:24:56) diva: there is no "kind of region" in my mind in core (16:25:01) You have been kicked by Hiro_Protagonist: (Hiro_Protagonist) and then in #opensim (16:27:20) Snowcrash: so, Hiro_Protagonist, are you going to kick me from here as well, maybe even ban my regions from OSGrid, perhaps disable my accounts there as well (16:27:48) Hiro_Protagonist: Snowcrash: if your actions warrant such, yes I will (16:28:06) Snowcrash: did I behave in an obnoxious manner? (16:28:29) Snowcrash: or is the fact that I don't release under a normal BSD sufficient reason (16:29:41) Snowcrash: how did my actions warrant being kicked from -dev? (16:29:47) Snowcrash: what did I do that was so wrong? (16:30:08) Snowcrash: let me know, so I can avoid that behaviour again (16:31:13) Hippo-Finesmith: ahhh i c hiro strikes again (16:31:23) Hiro_Protagonist: it's quite simple really - you have expressed a complete lack of willingness to participate in this community on it's terms (16:31:28) Hiro_Protagonist: this is a bsd project (16:31:34) Snowcrash: yes .. and for some reason I don't understand, that's the worst (16:31:37) Hiro_Protagonist: you get tons of support for your work (16:31:50) Hiro_Protagonist: and dont contribute that work in its fullness back to the entire community (16:31:58) Hiro_Protagonist: you are a parasite (16:32:01) Snowcrash: Hiro, so the patches I have put into mantis accounts for nothing? (16:32:17) Snowcrash: and in order to be in -dev you must release all code under BSD? (16:32:19) Hippo-Finesmith: using ure rerasones there hiro then 90% of ppl in this channel are (16:32:19) Hiro_Protagonist: I dont know what patches you have put into mantis (16:32:38) Snowcrash: take a look, or talk to Melanie_t (16:32:55) Hiro_Protagonist: no, snowcrash - you dont have to release your code bsd to be in -dev (16:33:16) Snowcrash: (16:31:28) Hiro_Protagonist: this is a bsd project (16:33:25) Hiro_Protagonist: but if I tell you to but out of a conversation you have no business in on -dev, you better take heed (16:33:36) Snowcrash: (16:31:58) Hiro_Protagonist: you are a parasite (16:33:42) Hiro_Protagonist: you are (16:33:43) Snowcrash: what am I parasitiing? (16:33:48) osmantis: Bug #4267: LLUPDserver keep sending warnings about startpingchecks ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4267 ): has been set CHILD OF issue 0004257. (16:33:49) osmantis: Bug #4257: [LLUDPCLIENT] Received a StartPingCheck packet from an unrecognized source, after hg jump ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4257 ): has been set PARENT OF issue 0004267. (16:34:06) Hiro_Protagonist: the time and attention of people who work for the interests of the entire community without reservation (16:34:20) Snowcrash: I have made non only code contributions, but also participated in helping others in design and implementation (16:34:24) Snowcrash: is that parasiting? (16:34:46) Snowcrash: so I should release under full BSD, or not be part of -dev (16:34:58) Snowcrash: what about Adam and Mel or JHurliman? (16:35:17) Snowcrash: or MW for that matter (16:35:30) osmantis: Bug #4267: LLUPDserver keep sending warnings about startpingchecks ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4267 ): A NOTE has been added to this issue. (16:35:56) Snowcrash: what happened with, "begin gratefull for what contributions people make" ? (16:36:30) Snowcrash: so I ask again, how am I a parasite, name specifics (16:37:54) Snowcrash: I have a feeling that this is really about, standards being good, double standards are twice as good (16:38:37) Hippo-Finesmith: i have a feeling its also about Hiro wanting to feel almighty powerfull :) I believe I - at the very least - deserve an explantion why, so I can avoid that information in the future. _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list [email protected] https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
