+1 I think your suggestions are admirable and would be good if this is taken on 
board, having a timeframe around items would definitely help focus and ensure 
reviews in a timely manner.

/Alan

From: Rudra Rugge [mailto:ru...@contrailsystems.com]
Sent: July-31-14 6:41 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [neutron] Spec exceptions are closed, FPF is 
August 21

Hi Kyle,

I also agree with Mandeep's suggestion of putting a time frame on the lingering 
"-2" if the addressed concerns have been taken care of. In my experience also a 
sticky -2 detracts other reviewers from reviewing an updated patch.

Either a time-frame or a possible override by PTL (move to -1) would help make 
progress on the review.

Regards,
Rudra

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Mandeep Dhami 
<dh...@noironetworks.com<mailto:dh...@noironetworks.com>> wrote:
Hi Kyle:

As -2 is sticky, and as there exists a possibility that the original core might 
not get time to get back to re-reviewing his, do you think that there should be 
clearer guidelines on it's usage (to avoid what you identified as "dropping of 
the balls")?

Salvatore had a good guidance in a related thread [0], do you agree with 
something like that?



I try to avoid -2s as much as possible. I put a -2 only when I reckon your

patch should never be merged because it'll make the software unstable or

tries to solve a problem that does not exist. -2s stick across patches and

tend to put off other reviewers.
[0] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-July/041339.html


Or do you think that 3-5 days after an update that addresses the issues 
identified in the original -2, we should automatically remove that -2? If this 
does not happen often, this process does not have to be automated, just an 
"exception" that the PTL can exercise to address issues where the original 
reason for -2 has been addressed and nothing new has been identified?


On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Kyle Mestery 
<mest...@mestery.com<mailto:mest...@mestery.com>> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Yuriy Taraday 
<yorik....@gmail.com<mailto:yorik....@gmail.com>> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Kyle Mestery 
> <mest...@mestery.com<mailto:mest...@mestery.com>> wrote:
>> and even less
>> possibly rootwrap [3] if the security implications can be worked out.
>
> Can you please provide some input on those security implications that are
> not worked out yet?
> I'm really surprised to see such comments in some ML thread not directly
> related to the BP. Why is my spec blocked? Neither spec [1] nor code (which
> is available for a really long time now [2] [3]) can get enough reviewers'
> attention because of those groundless -2's. Should I abandon these change
> requests and file new ones to get some eyes on my code and proposals? It's
> just getting ridiculous. Let's take a look at timeline, shall we?
>
I share your concerns here as well, and I'm sorry you've had a bad
experience working with the community here.

> Mar, 25 - first version of the first part of Neutron code is published at
> [2]
> Mar, 28 - first reviewers come and it gets -1'd by Mark because of lack of
> BP (thankful it wasn't -2 yet, so reviews continued)
> Apr, 1 - Both Oslo [5] and Neturon [6] BPs are created;
> Apr, 2 - first version of the second part of Neutron code is published at
> [3];
> May, 16 - first version of Neutron spec is published at [1];
> May, 19 - Neutron spec gets frozen by Mark's -2 (because Oslo BP is not
> approved yet);
> May, 21 - first part of Neutron code [2] is found generally OK by reviewers;
> May, 21 - first version of Oslo spec is published at [4];
> May, 29 - a version of the second part of Neutron code [3] is published that
> later raises only minor comments by reviewers;
> Jun, 5 - both parts of Neutron code [2] [3] get frozen by -2 from Mark
> because BP isn't approved yet;
> Jun, 23 - Oslo spec [4] is mostly ironed out;
> Jul, 8 - Oslo spec [4] is merged, Neutron spec immediately gets +1 and +2;
> Jul, 20 - SAD kicks in, no comments from Mark or anyone on blocked change
> requests;
> Jul, 24 - in response to Kyle's suggestion I'm filing SAD exception;
> Jul, 31 - I'm getting final "decision" as follows: "Your BP will extremely
> unlikely get to Juno".
>
> Do you see what I see? Code and spec is mostly finished in May (!) where the
> "mostly" part is lack of reviewers because of that Mark's -2. And 1 month
> later when all bureaucratic reasons fall off nothing happens. Don't think I
> didn't try to approach Mark. Don't think I didn't approach Kyle on this
> issue. Because I did. But nothing happens and another month passes by and I
> get "You know, may be later" general response. Noone (but those who knew
> about it originally) even looks at my code for 2 months already because Mark
> doesn't think (I hope he did think) he should lift -2 and I'm getting "why
> not wait another 3 months?"
>
> What the hell is that? You don't want to land features that doesn't have
> code 2 weeks before Juno-3, I get that. My code has almost finished code by
> 3.5 months before that! And you're considering to throw it to Kilo because
> of some mystical issues that must've been covered in Oslo spec [4] and if
> you like it they can be covered in Neutron spec [1] but you have to let
> reviewers see it!
>
> I don't think that Mark's actions (lack of them, actually) are what's
> expected from core reviewer. No reaction to requests from developer whose
> code got frozen by his -2. No reaction (at least no visible one) to PTL's
> requests (and Kyle assured me he made those). Should we consider Mark
> uncontrollable and unreachable? Why does he have -2 right in the first place
> then? So how should I overcome his inaction? I can recreate new change
> requests and hope he won't just -2 them with no comment at all. But that
> would be just a sign of total failure of our shiny bureaucracy.
>
I have reached out a few times to Mark, and I'm not going to put words
in his mouth here, but what I can say is that the Neutron Core team
tries it's best to read all BPs and code which are submitted. In this
particular case, there was some dropping of the balls in how we
handled this. Carl has reached out to me a few times on this, and I've
reached out to Mark as well to remove the -2 here. Sometimes, even
with best intentions, things go awry.

To move forward, there is interest in getting this feature upstream,
maybe even in Juno. But given some concerns I've heard from Mark and
now Thierry, maybe this does make sense to move to Kilo. I'll wait for
Mark to reply on this thread and chime in here, as well as Thierry if
he has more to say. Outside that, if Carl is willing to shepherd this
and we can get Mark to reply, it's still possible we can get this into
Juno.

Thanks,
Kyle

> [1] https://review.openstack.org/93889 - Neutron spec
> [2] https://review.openstack.org/82787 - first part of Neutron code
> [3] https://review.openstack.org/84667 - second part of Neutron code
> [4] https://review.openstack.org/94613 - Oslo spec
> [5] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oslo/+spec/rootwrap-daemon-mode
> [6] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/rootwrap-daemon-mode
>
> --
>
> Kind regards, Yuriy.
>
> _______________________________________________
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