I'm fairly certain the buzzing sound I can hear is a bee in my bonnet... so I suspect that I'm starting to sound like someone chasing a bee that only they can hear. I'm not sure if it's helpful to keep this discussion on this list - would there be a better forum somewhere else?
On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Thierry Carrez <thie...@openstack.org> wrote: > James Polley wrote: > > > > > However, Thierry pointed > > > to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/Structure > > which > > > still refers to Project Technical Leads and says explicitly that > they > > > lead individual projects, not programs. I actually have edit > access to > > > that page, so I could at least update that with a simple > > > "s/Project/Program/", if I was sure that was the right thing to do. > > > > Don't underestimate how stale wiki pages can become! Yes, fix it. > > > > I don't know if I've fixed it, but I've certainly replaced all users of > > the word Project with Program. > > > > Whether or not it now matches reality, I'm not sure. > > > > I alsp removed (what I assume is) a stale reference to the PPB and added > > a new heading for the TC. > > It looks correct to me, thanks! > > > > http://www.openstack.org/ has a link in the bottom nav that says > > > "Projects"; it points to http://www.openstack.org/projects/ which > > > redirects to http://www.openstack.org/software/ which has a list > of > > > things like "Compute" and "Storage" - which as far as I know are > > > Programs, not Projects. I don't know how to update that link in > > the nav > > > panel. > > > > That's because the same word ("compute") is used for two different > > things: a program name ("Compute") and an "official OpenStack name" > for > > a project ("OpenStack Compute a.k.a. Nova"). Basically official > > OpenStack names reduce confusion for newcomers ("What is Nova ?"), > but > > they confuse old-timers at some point ("so the Compute program > produces > > Nova a.k.a. OpenStack Compute ?"). > > > > > > That's confusing to me. I had thought that part of the reason for the > > separation was to enable a level of indirection - if the Compute program > > team decide that a new project called (for example) SuperNova should be > > the main project, that just means that Openstack Compute is now a > > pointer to a different project, supported by the same program team. > > > > It sounds like that isn't the intent though? > > That's more of a side-effect than the intent, IMHO. The indirection we > created is between teams and code repositories. > > > I wasn't around when the original Programs/Projects discussion was > > > happening - which, I suspect, has a lot to do with why I'm confused > > > today - it seems as though people who were around at the time > > understand > > > the difference, but people who have joined since then are relying > on > > > multiple conflicting verbal definitions. I believe, though, > > > that > > > http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-June/010821.html > > > was one of the earliest starting points of the discussion. That > page > > > points at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects, which today > > contains > > > a list of Programs. That page does have a definition of what a > Program > > > is, but doesn't explain what a Project is or how they relate to > > > Programs. This page seems to be locked down, so I can't edit it. > > > > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects was renamed to > > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Programs with the wiki helpfully > leaving > > a redirect behind. So the content you are seeing here is the > "Programs" > > wiki page, which is why it doesn't define "projects". > > > > We don't really use the word "project" that much anymore, we prefer > to > > talk about code repositories. Programs are teams working on a set of > > code repositories. Some of those code repositories may appear in the > > integrated release. > > > > This explanation of the difference between projects and programs sounds > > like it would be useful to add to /Programs - but I can't edit that page. > > This page reflects the official list of programs, which is why it's > protected. it's supposed to be replaced by an automatic publication from > > http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml > which is the ultimate source of truth on that topic. > I was going to ask about the reference to "The process new projects can follow to become an Integrated project" - is that intended to refer to a project or a program? But then I read https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116727/ and and http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/incubation-integration-requirements.rst, seem to make it clear that it's entirely possible that the Kitty program might have a mix of Integrated and non-Integrated projects. Is it safe to assume that the Governance repo is canonical and up-to-date, and rework the wiki pages based on the information in the Governance repo? > >  https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProjectTypes > > > > I *can* edit that page; I'd like to bring it up-to-date. It seems like a > > good basis for explaining the difference between Programs and Projects > > and the historical reasons for the split. I'll aim to take a stab at > > this next week. > > Please feel free to do so, however that page is really an artifact of > the old way we were structured, and is therefore useful as an historic > leftover :) It's not linked from anywhere those days. Maybe you should > create a new page, like > https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Projects_vs_Programs ? What you want to > talk about is not really about "Project Types" anyway. > -- > Thierry Carrez (ttx) > > _______________________________________________ > OpenStack-dev mailing list > OpenStackfirstname.lastname@example.org > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >
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