On Sat, 8 Nov 2014, Robert Collins wrote:
What changes do you want to see in the ui?
I don't want to hijack the thread too much so I hope Dmitriy will join back in but for me there are two aspects of the existing experience that don't work out well. I suspect many of these situations can be resolved with more info (that is, the bug is in my ignorance, not in the software). * Lack of transparency on how to manage verbosity and output handling during a test run. Obviously the output during an unobserved run is going to need to be different from what I as a devloper want while doing an observed run. In the latter case I want to know, while it is happening, which tests have been discovered, which one is happening right now, and a sense of the status of the current assert. I want, at my option, to spew stderr and stdout directly without interference so I can do unhygenic debugging. Essentially, I want to be able to discover the flags, arguments and toosl that allow me to use tests as an ad hoc development aid, not post hoc. I know this is possible with the existing tools, it's just not easy nor easy (for me) to discover. * The current testing code and tools are, to use that lovely saw, "hard to reason about". Which for me equates to "hard to read". This is perhaps because I'm not particular wed to _unit_ tests, _unittest_ formed tests, or concepts such as test isolation and hates mocks. I see the value of these things but I think it is easy for them to be overused and make other purposes more difficult. I threw this up on the list a little while, which is related: Same complaints and a hope that we won't have the same over-emphasis when we move to in tree testing. Summary: I think we need to spend some time and thought on improving the usefulness of tests, testing and testing tools for someone working on a feature or a bug _right now_. That is: tests run by humans should be as frictionless as possible so that bugs are caught and fixed before test suites are ever run by robots.  https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/cdent-rhat/SummitFunctionalTesting  And with luck will help create more effective and usable code.  Yes, I believe in TDD. -- Chris Dent tw:@anticdent freenode:cdent https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/cdent _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStackfirstname.lastname@example.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev