On Nov 13, 2014, at 4:08 PM, Clint Byrum <cl...@fewbar.com> wrote:

> Excerpts from Joshua Harlow's message of 2014-11-13 14:01:14 -0800:
>> On Nov 13, 2014, at 7:10 AM, Clint Byrum <cl...@fewbar.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Excerpts from Joshua Harlow's message of 2014-11-13 00:45:07 -0800:
>>>> A question;
>>>> 
>>>> How is using something like celery in heat vs taskflow in heat (or at 
>>>> least concept [1]) 'to many code change'.
>>>> 
>>>> Both seem like change of similar levels ;-)
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I've tried a few times to dive into refactoring some things to use
>>> TaskFlow at a shallow level, and have always gotten confused and
>>> frustrated.
>>> 
>>> The amount of lines that are changed probably is the same. But the
>>> massive shift in thinking is not an easy one to make. It may be worth some
>>> thinking on providing a shorter bridge to TaskFlow adoption, because I'm
>>> a huge fan of the idea and would _start_ something with it in a heartbeat,
>>> but refactoring things to use it feels really weird to me.
>> 
>> I wonder how I can make that better...
>> 
>> Where the concepts that new/different? Maybe I just have more of a 
>> functional programming background and the way taskflow gets you to create 
>> tasks that are later executed, order them ahead of time, and then *later* 
>> run them is still a foreign concept for folks that have not done things with 
>> non-procedural languages. What were the confusion points, how may I help 
>> address them? More docs maybe, more examples, something else?
> 
> My feeling is that it is hard to let go of the language constructs that
> _seem_ to solve the problems TaskFlow does, even though in fact they are
> the problem because they're using the stack for control-flow where we
> want that control-flow to yield to TaskFlow.
> 

U know u want to let go!

> I also kind of feel like the Twisted folks answered a similar question
> with inline callbacks and made things "easier" but more complex in
> doing so. If I had a good answer I would give it to you though. :)
> 
>> 
>> I would agree that the jobboard[0] concept is different than the other parts 
>> of taskflow, but it could be useful here:
>> 
>> Basically at its core its a application of zookeeper where 'jobs' are posted 
>> to a directory (using sequenced nodes in zookeeper, so that ordering is 
>> retained). Entities then acquire ephemeral locks on those 'jobs' (these 
>> locks will be released if the owner process disconnects, or fails...) and 
>> then work on the contents of that job (where contents can be pretty much 
>> arbitrary). This creates a highly available job queue (queue-like due to the 
>> node sequencing[1]), and it sounds pretty similar to what zaqar could 
>> provide in theory (except the zookeeper one is proven, battle-hardened, 
>> works and exists...). But we should of course continue being scared of 
>> zookeeper, because u know, who wants to use a tool where it would fit, haha 
>> (this is a joke).
>> 
> 
> So ordering is a distraction from the task at hand. But the locks that
> indicate liveness of the workers is very interesting to me. Since we
> don't actually have requirements of ordering on the front-end of the task
> (we do on the completion of certain tasks, but we can use a DB for that),
> I wonder if we can just get the same effect with a durable queue that uses
> a reliable messaging pattern where we don't ack until we're done. That
> would achieve the goal of liveness.
> 

Possibly, it depends on what the message broker is doing with the message when 
the message hasn't been acked. With zookeeper being used as a queue of jobs, 
the job actually has an owner (the thing with the ephemeral lock on the job) so 
the job won't get 'taken over' by someone else unless that ephemeral lock drops 
off (due to owner dying or disconnecting...); this is where I'm not sure what 
message brokers do (varies by message broker?).

An example little taskflow program that I made that u can also run (replace my 
zookeeper server with your own).

http://paste.ubuntu.com/8995861/

You can then run like:

$ python jb.py  'producer'

And for a worker (start many of these if u want),

$ python jb.py 'c1'

Then you can see the work being produced/consumed, and u can ctrl-c 'c1' and 
then another worker will take over the work...

Something like the following should be output (by workers):

$ python jb.py 'c2'
INFO:kazoo.client:Connecting to buildingbuild.corp.yahoo.com:2181
INFO:kazoo.client:Zookeeper connection established, state: CONNECTED
Waiting for jobs to appear...
Running {u'action': u'stuff', u'id': 1}
Waiting for jobs to appear...
Running {u'action': u'stuff', u'id': 3}

For producers:

$ python jb.py  'producer'
INFO:kazoo.client:Connecting to buildingbuild.corp.yahoo.com:2181
INFO:kazoo.client:Zookeeper connection established, state: CONNECTED
Posting work item {'action': 'stuff', 'id': 0}
Posting work item {'action': 'stuff', 'id': 1}
Posting work item {'action': 'stuff', 'id': 2}
Posting work item {'action': 'stuff', 'id': 3}
Posting work item {'action': 'stuff', 'id': 4}
Posting work item {'action': 'stuff', 'id': 5}

Now you may ask yourself, why the heck does taskflow have this built-in, a 
legit question... This is where it gets interesting IMHO, when you associate 
your desired execution details in the job information/details (as in above), 
then you distribute that job to some worker/s (one will acquire it and lock it 
using the shown mechanism), that one worker will then work on it to completion 
(or die trying). This is where the other state preservation/resumption that 
taskflow has integrated comes into play (and if this information is also stored 
in the job information it works out even better), as now that worker can resume 
from step X of Z if the thing to be executed was partially completed... Ie, if 
the worker dies at step Z - 1 of Z, then the lock will be released 
automatically (this is what happens to emphermal nodes in zookeeper), the 
desired execution will be acquired/locked by a new worker, that worker will 
then resume at step Z - 1 of Z and then finish the work (and so-on). So in a wa
 y this creates a highly available (and transferable) execution workflow, 
something that IMHO is rather unique and I haven't seen something like it 
existing in projects like celery, mesos or other...

The concept of conductors[1] in taskflow were made to unify all these concepts 
(although the concepts can of course be used individually).

[1] http://docs.openstack.org/developer/taskflow/conductors.html

>> [0] 
>> https://github.com/openstack/taskflow/blob/master/taskflow/jobs/jobboard.py#L25
>>  
>> 
>> [1] 
>> http://zookeeper.apache.org/doc/trunk/zookeeperProgrammers.html#Sequence+Nodes+--+Unique+Naming
>> 
>>> 
>>>> What was your metric for determining the code change either would have 
>>>> (out of curiosity)?
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps u should look at [2], although I'm unclear on what the desired 
>>>> functionality is here.
>>>> 
>>>> Do u want the single engine to transfer its work to another engine when it 
>>>> 'goes down'? If so then the jobboard model + zookeper inherently does this.
>>>> 
>>>> Or maybe u want something else? I'm probably confused because u seem to be 
>>>> asking for resource timeouts + recover from engine failure (which seems 
>>>> like a liveness issue and not a resource timeout one), those 2 things seem 
>>>> separable.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I agree with you on this. It is definitely a liveness problem. The
>>> resource timeout isn't something I've seen discussed before. We do have
>>> a stack timeout, and we need to keep on honoring that, but we can do
>>> that with a job that sleeps for the stack timeout if we have a liveness
>>> guarantee that will resurrect the job (with the sleep shortened by the
>>> time since stack-update-time) somewhere else if the original engine
>>> can't complete the job.
>>> 
>>>> [1] http://docs.openstack.org/developer/taskflow/jobs.html
>>>> 
>>>> [2] 
>>>> http://docs.openstack.org/developer/taskflow/examples.html#jobboard-producer-consumer-simple
>>>> 
>>>> On Nov 13, 2014, at 12:29 AM, Murugan, Visnusaran 
>>>> <visnusaran.muru...@hp.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Convergence-POC distributes stack operations by sending resource actions 
>>>>> over RPC for any heat-engine to execute. Entire stack lifecycle will be 
>>>>> controlled by worker/observer notifications. This distributed model has 
>>>>> its own advantages and disadvantages.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any stack operation has a timeout and a single engine will be responsible 
>>>>> for it. If that engine goes down, timeout is lost along with it. So a 
>>>>> traditional way is for other engines to recreate timeout from scratch. 
>>>>> Also a missed resource action notification will be detected only when 
>>>>> stack operation timeout happens.
>>>>> 
>>>>> To overcome this, we will need the following capability:
>>>>> 1.       Resource timeout (can be used for retry)
>>>>> 2.       Recover from engine failure (loss of stack timeout, resource 
>>>>> action notification)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Suggestion:
>>>>> 1.       Use task queue like celery to host timeouts for both stack and 
>>>>> resource.
>>>>> 2.       Poll database for engine failures and restart timers/ retrigger 
>>>>> resource retry (IMHO: This would be a traditional and weighs heavy)
>>>>> 3.       Migrate heat to use TaskFlow. (Too many code change)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not suggesting we use Task Flow. Using celery will have very minimum 
>>>>> code change. (decorate appropriate functions)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your thoughts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Vishnu
>>>>> IRC: ckmvishnu
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> 
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