-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19/11/14 18:39, Dan Smith wrote: >> However, it presents a problem when we consider NovaObjects, and >> dependencies between them. > > I disagree with this assertion, because: > >> For example, take Instance.save(). An Instance has relationships >> with several other object types, one of which is >> InstanceInfoCache. Consider the following code, which is amongst >> what happens in spawn(): >> >> instance = Instance.get_by_uuid(uuid) instance.vm_state = >> vm_states.ACTIVE instance.info_cache.network_info = new_nw_info >> instance.save() >> >> instance.save() does (simplified): self.info_cache.save() >> self._db_save() >> >> Both of these saves happen in separate db transactions. > > This has always been two DB calls, and for a while recently, it was > two RPCs, each of which did one call.
Well, let's take the opportunity to fix it :) I'll also point out that although your head may contain everywhere that Nova touches both info_cache and instance: 1. Not many other peoples' do. 2. Reasoning about the safety of this robustly is still hard. As I mentioned, this is also just 1 example among many. Others include: * Flavor.save() makes an unbounded number of db calls in separate transactions. * Instance.save() cascades saves to security groups, each of which is saved in a separate transaction. We can push these into the db layer, but it is my understanding that NovaObjects are supposed to manage their own mapping of internal state - -> db representation. If we push this into the db api, we're violating the separation of concerns. If we're going to do this, we'd better understand, and be able to articulate, *why* we don't want to allow NovaObjects to manage a db transaction when required. The pattern I outlined below is very simple. >> This has at least 2 undesirable effects: >> >> 1. A failure can result in an inconsistent database. i.e. >> info_cache having been persisted, but instance.vm_state not >> having been persisted. >> >> 2. Even in the absence of a failure, an external reader can see >> the new info_cache but the old instance. > > I think you might want to pick a different example. We update the > info_cache all the time asynchronously, due to "time has passed" > and other non-user-visible reasons. Ok, pick one of the others above. >> New features continue to add to the problem, including numa >> topology and pci requests. > > NUMA and PCI information are now created atomically with the > instance (or at least, passed to SQLA in a way I expect does the > insert as a single transaction). We don't yet do that in save(), I > think because we didn't actually change this information after > creation until recently. > > Definitely agree that we should not save the PCI part without the > base instance part. How are we going to achieve that? >> I don't think we can reasonably remove the cascading save() above >> due to the deliberate design of objects. Objects don't correspond >> directly to their datamodels, so save() does more work than just >> calling out to the DB. We need a way to allow cascading object >> saves to happen within a single DB transaction. This will mean: >> >> 1. A change will be persisted either entirely or not at all in >> the event of a failure. >> >> 2. A reader will see either the whole change or none of it. > > This is definitely what we should strive for in cases where the > updates are related, but as I said above, for things (like info > cache) where it doesn't matter, we should be fine. I'm proposing a pattern which is always safe and is simple to reason about. I would implement it everywhere. I don't think there are any downsides. >> Note that there is this recently approved oslo.db spec to make >> transactions more manageable: >> >> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125181/11/specs/kilo/make-enginefacade-a-facade.rst,cm >> >> >> Again, while this will be a significant benefit to the DB api, it will >> not solve the problem of cascading object saves without allowing >> transaction management at the level of NovaObject.save(): we need >> to allow something to call a db api with an existing session, and >> we need to allow something to pass an existing db transaction to >> NovaObject.save(). > > I don't agree that we need to be concerned about this at the > NovaObject.save() level. I do agree that Instance.save() needs to > have a relationship to its sub-objects that facilitates atomicity > (where appropriate), and that such a pattern can be used for other > such hierarchies. > >> An obvious precursor to that is removing N309 from hacking, >> which specifically tests for db apis which accept a session >> argument. We then need to consider how NovaObject.save() should >> manage and propagate db transactions. > > Right, so I believe that we had more consistent handling of > transactions in the past. We had a mechanism for passing around the > session between chained db/api methods to ensure they happened > atomically. I think Boris led the charge to eliminate that, > culminating with the hacking rule you mentioned. > > Maybe getting back to the justification for removing that facility > would help us understand the challenges we face going forward? I don't know Boris. I can reach out to him if you think we need his input. However, I think the challenges we have today are fairly clear. >>  At a slight tangent, this looks like an artifact of some >> premature generalisation a few years ago. It seems unlikely that >> anybody is going to rewrite the db api using an ORM other than >> sqlalchemy, so we should probably ditch it and promote it to >> db/api.py. > > We've had a few people ask about it, in terms of rewriting some or > all of our DB API to talk to a totally non-SQL backend. Further, > AFAIK, RAX rewrites a few of the DB API calls to use raw SQL > queries for performance (or did, at one point). > > I'm quite happy to have the implementation of Instance.save() make > use of primitives to ensure atomicity where appropriate. I don't > think that's something that needs or deserves generalization at > this point, and I'm not convinced it needs to be in the save method > itself. Right now we update several things atomically by passing > something to db/api that gets turned into properly-related SQLA > objects. I think we could do the same for any that we're currently > cascading separately, even if the db/api update method uses a > transaction to ensure safety. As I mention above, the problem with this approach is the separation of concerns between NovaObjects and the db api. E.g. InfoCache jsonifies its data in save() before sending it to the db. If we move that logic to db.instance_update_and_get_original(), how do we ensure the same logic applies when we save the info cache directly? It's certainly achievable, but it's just adding to the mess. My proposal is safe, efficient, and simple. Matt - -- Matthew Booth Red Hat Engineering, Virtualisation Team Phone: +442070094448 (UK) GPG ID: D33C3490 GPG FPR: 3733 612D 2D05 5458 8A8A 1600 3441 EA19 D33C 3490 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlRuJP8ACgkQNEHqGdM8NJBgygCfcrZ6PSpeGaJIzkmNKGVIK/Ut I3YAnjdc1kxONRhJK5ET1HY2kKHFTFT+ =KbI+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStackemail@example.com http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev