On 06/26/2015 04:57 PM, Joe Gordon wrote:
On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Dmitry Tantsur <dtant...@redhat.com
<mailto:dtant...@redhat.com>> wrote:
On 06/26/2015 04:08 PM, Sean Dague wrote:
On 06/26/2015 07:43 AM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On 06/26/2015 01:14 PM, Sean Dague wrote:
On 06/16/2015 09:51 AM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
On 06/16/2015 08:56 AM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
To sum this long post up, I'm seeing that hiding
new features based on
microversions brings much more problems, than it
solves (I'm not aware
of the latter at all). I'm very opposed to
continuing doing it in
Ironic, and I'm going to propose patch stopping
gating Kilo changes
(non-breaking obviously).
I'm talking about this patch:
https://review.openstack.org/#/c/192196/
We have to do it right now, as otherwise we can't
test inspection in
tempest (it does not seem to be microversion-aware).
Dmitry,
How do you solve for the following situation?
2 Clouds (A and B), both being Continuously Deployed.
Assume both clouds start at same revision of code. At
point in time T a
new "compatable change" is added to the API. For
instance, another field
returned by some resource.
Cloud B upgrades to that change.
Brand new developer shows up. Starts writing application
against Cloud
B. Sees that change is available at version 1.4. Hard
codes her
application to use this parameter.
Then she points her application at Cloud A. And it explodes.
I clearly agree that my solutions do not solve this
situation. Neither
does yours. Now let us see:
A compatible change is getting added and is guarded behind
version 1.5.
A new developer starts requiring this new version, because
she needs
this new feature (that's your assumption).
Then she points her application at cloud A. And it explodes.
But with
different error message and probably a bit earlier. But
explodes.
Which, by the way, means we still must know precisely which
API version
is served by all clouds we might apply our utility to.
But it fails with "Your application is attempting to use API 1.5
which
is not supported in this cloud". Because if you don't specify a
version,
you get the base 1.0, and never had new features.
That's an error which is extremely clear to understand what went
wrong.
Has docs to figure out if the application could work at an earlier
release version, and provides the ability for the client to do some
selection logic based on supported versions.
I agree that error is clear. I'm not sure it's worth doing despite
all the problems that I mentioned in the beginning of this thread.
In particular, situation around official CLI and testing.
E.g. do you agree with Jim that we should make API version a
required argument for both CLI and Python library?
-Sean
So I agree, hitting API version error could make a person
realize that a
change to the utility is no longer compatible with the
current version
of API. So if this change wasn't intended - fine. If it was
(which is
the most likely situation), it won't help you.
By the way, I've heard some people wanting to deprecate API
version with
time. If we do so, it will open some new horizons for breakages.
If we don't, we'll soon end put with dozens of version to
support and
test. How to solve it? (in Ironic IIRC we just only gate
test one
version, namely Kilo aka 1.6, which is very, very bad IMO).
I feel like in your concerns there has been an
assumption that the
operation across all clouds effectively always goes
forwards. But
because we're trying to encourage and create a
multicloud ecosystem a
user application might experience the world the
following way.
Cloud A -> Cloud A' -> Cloud A'' -> Cloud D -> Cloud B'
-> Cloud C ->
Cloud C'.
I think that versioning actually encourages this (wrong)
assumption.
Because versions grow with time naturally, and we, the
developers, like
new and shiny stuff so much :) see below for my alternative
idea.
While no individual cloud is likely to downgrade code
(though we can't
fully rule that out), the fact that we'd like
applications to work
against a wide range of deployments means effectively
applications are
going to experience the world as if the code bases both
upgrade and
downgrade over time.
Which means that a change is only "compatable" if the
inverse of the
change is also "compatable". So a field add is only
compatable if the
field delete is also considered compatible, because
people are going to
experience that when they hop to another cloud.
Which is also why feature hiding is a thing. Because we
don't control
when every cloud is going to upgrade, and what they'll
upgrade to. So
the best idea so far about getting this right is that
API 1.4 is
*exactly* a specific surface. Features added in 1.5 are
not visibile if
you ask for 1.4. Because if they were, and you now wrote
applications
that used that bleed through, when you jump to a cloud
without 1.5 yet
deployed, all your application code breaks.
Note that if you rely on version 1.4 with feature hiding, your
application will also break. I.e. I agree it's a valid
situation to fix,
I just don't see feature hiding fixing *all* cases of this
problem.
While an API exposing feature explicitly might be more
handy, imagine e.g.
$ curl http://ironic.host/v1/features
['inspection', 'raid', ...]
Exposing interface like that would encourage people to think
about their
application in terms of mandatory and optional features, not
some numbers.
Yes, version number is being used as a proxy for a feature
description.
Which is what version numbers are used for in software. It's a
way to
let people think about bundles of things, instead of having to
mentally
map out every single feature in their head.
Why do you think it's good? People are using features, not numbers.
They don't need to map out features - on the contrary they do need
to map versions to features. We've reached 1.8 with Ironic - and I
(the core) don't remember what were these version about, except for 1.6.
Does Ironic have a document explaining each API version? I quick search
in the source tree didn't turn anything up. Being able to easily figure
out what each API version do is important for end users. As a user,
when I see the cloud I use now supports nova API 2.26 I want an easy way
of figuring out what that actually means.
I think we don't.
To address this, nova has the following document:
http://docs.openstack.org/developer/nova/api_microversion_history.html
Btw 2.3 looks big, were it really one feature (and one commit, as we're
talking about people deploying from master)?
Maybe we can some day to a place where we can have an API that's
fully
feature describing, and doesn't need numbers. But after 2.5 years of
trying to do a major rewrite of the Nova API, it was pretty
clear that
APIs of any reasonable size just can't do that. And can't rely on
software to keep up with your changes. This provides a mechanism for
evolution with a stability contract that API 1.4 is going to keep
looking exactly the same over time. So you can upgrade client
code on
your schedule, not on the schedule of the server upgrades.
I don't see any problem with creating an API serving list of
strings, and then making contributors update this list every time
they change API. It's the same as making contributors bump version
number.
Nova has already been down that path, our microversion spec discusses a
few of the issues we found (It doesn't go into a lot of detail though):
http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/implemented/api-microversions.html#problem-description
Additionally the extensions model doesn't support backwards incompatible
changes.
Fair, this model is also not good.
-Sean
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