Just to add to what Naryan said, I think that unless the developers experience the pain points of a production-style deployment, they generally aren't going to be aware of what these pain points are. We need to both:
- Make it easy as possible for developers to get up and running so they can make changes - Make developers aware what doing a "real" deployment is like so they can fix usability issues, documentation gaps, etc. Take care, Lorin -- Lorin Hochstein Lead Architect - Cloud Services Nimbis Services, Inc. www.nimbisservices.com On Mar 21, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Ghe Rivero wrote: > Narayan, I completely agree with you. Developers are our "first line of > defense", but they are not the only one. I would love to have different > environments (development, SMB deployments, large scale deployments), where > all of them have the same behavior, but i'm afraid there is already a long > road that needs time. We will work on it and try to avoid problem like the > one's you are facing from transitions from one release to another. > Ghe Rivero > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Narayan Desai <[email protected]> > wrote: > Ghe, while you're right that these two workloads are different, deployers > need developers to use a representative environment during development, or > the code doesn't work when it hits real deployments. We've now been bitten > during our initial deployment of cactus, our upgrade to diablo, and our > recent tests preparing for the essex upgrade because we can't run our > management infrastructure on a single system. > > During cactus, we had issues when we tried to run multiple nova-network > servers distinctly from the api service. IIRC during the diablo release, we > had issues with keystone and horizon. This time, we had issues with > glance/keystone integration. I'm not saying that things haven't improved, it > just seems that each release has a new issue caused by the assumption that > all services will be running on the same host. > > As we get more users with large deployments, these sorts of issues will only > become a bigger deal, and will hinder large scale adoption. > -nld > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 3:26 AM, Ghe Rivero <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, > we are facing two differents problems here. We have developers and final > users, and both of them with different expectations about what to get from > OpenStack. Developers wants an easy way to test "untested" code, new > cool-probably-broken features and be able to change immediately - devstack is > the perfect tool for this . On the other hand, final users just want a > working easy to deploy system, without care if the latest > cool-probably-broken feature is included (I bet they prefer it to not be). > But the truth is that OpenStack can't ignore any of them. Nobody will use a > program which is hard to install, deploy, test or develop on it. Some > consensus will be necessary in the user side (I think we all agree that > development is ok with devstack) As Justin pointed before, > http://summit.openstack.org/sessions/view/26, can be a good starting point, > defining a common set of minimums that every package should comply with > (file/dir locations and perms, minimal contents of config files, users > created, python external modules requiriments/ minimal versions, ...), so > when someone complaint about something, we know that the installation has > some minimal standards that it follows (just a quick idea that just came to > my mind to help debugging users installations, a simple script, that use > paste.openstack.org, and post there the config files, daemons runnings, last > lines of some logs, version of pkgs installed...) > > Ghe Rivero > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Joshua Harlow <[email protected]> wrote: > Another idea: > > http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-developer-tools/spectacle > > That python code seems to be able to take a yaml defintion and generate > either rpm specfiles or debian pkg files. > > It might be forked or extended (or both) and used to generate the initial set > of package definitions for openstack in a non-pkg specific format... > > > On 3/20/12 11:01 AM, "Justin Santa Barbara" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > I think devstack has done a lot for the developer's use-case, but I believe > we should also have a official / semi-official project that does some sort of > packaging to help the production use-case. I've proposed a summit > discussion: http://summit.openstack.org/sessions/view/26 > > The background: I want a semi-production deployment, but as a developer I > still want to be able to edit the code (which makes packages inconvenient). > devstack is orientated towards e.g. wiping the databases. > > I'm hoping that all the various OS packagers can work together, or at least > tell us what sucks. As a community, we should solve these problems once, and > the OpenStack project shouldn't treat them as externalities. I've been doing > some initial coding here: > https://github.com/justinsb/openstack-simple-config > > The first use case I'm trying to solve is "single node installation of > OpenStack" that is as easy as possible, but also isn't painting the user into > the corner. Think "apt-get openstack", then the user finds they like it and > grows to a 4 node cluster, all the way up to a 100 node cluster. So it uses > KVM, FlatManager, config drive injection, Postgresql, etc. - I'm afraid it is > still quite "opinionated"! I have Keystone, Glance & Nova installing. I'm > using supervisord to avoid any OS dependencies/flamewars, but I would imagine > that any OS packager could move it to their preferred init.d flavor easily. > Swift is next on my list - I was facing the problem that the number of > replicas isn't changeable, though I have a patch for that now. > > If you'd like to work together, I'd love to collaborate (and that holds for > anyone doing packaging). I'm hanging out in #openstack-packaging > > Justin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > -- > Ghe Rivero > OpenStack & Distribution Engineer > www.stackops.com | [email protected] | +34 625 63 45 23 | > skype:ghe.rivero > > > ******************** ADVERTENCIA LEGAL ******************** > Le informamos, como destinatario de este mensaje, que el correo electrónico y > las comunicaciones por medio de Internet no permiten asegurar ni garantizar > la confidencialidad de los mensajes transmitidos, así como tampoco su > integridad o su correcta recepción, por lo que STACKOPS TECHNOLOGIES S.L. no > asume responsabilidad alguna por tales circunstancias. 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Asimismo, le comunicamos que la > distribución, copia o utilización de este mensaje, o de cualquier documento > adjunto al mismo, cualquiera que fuera su finalidad, están prohibidas por la > ley. > > ***************** PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL **************** > We hereby inform you, as addressee of this message, that e-mail and Internet > do not guarantee the confidentiality, nor the completeness or proper > reception of the messages sent and, thus, STACKOPS TECHNOLOGIES S.L. does not > assume any liability for those circumstances. Should you not agree to the use > of e-mail or to communications via Internet, you are kindly requested to > notify us immediately. This message is intended exclusively for the person to > whom it is addressed and contains privileged and confidential information > protected from disclosure by law. If you are not the addressee indicated in > this message, you should immediately delete it and any attachments and notify > the sender by reply e-mail. In such case, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution, copying or use of this message or any > attachments, for any purpose, is strictly prohibited by law. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > -- > Ghe Rivero > OpenStack & Distribution Engineer > www.stackops.com | [email protected] | +34 625 63 45 23 | > skype:ghe.rivero > > > ******************** ADVERTENCIA LEGAL ******************** > Le informamos, como destinatario de este mensaje, que el correo electrónico y > las comunicaciones por medio de Internet no permiten asegurar ni garantizar > la confidencialidad de los mensajes transmitidos, así como tampoco su > integridad o su correcta recepción, por lo que STACKOPS TECHNOLOGIES S.L. no > asume responsabilidad alguna por tales circunstancias. Si no consintiese en > la utilización del correo electrónico o de las comunicaciones vía Internet le > rogamos nos lo comunique y ponga en nuestro conocimiento de manera inmediata. > Este mensaje va dirigido, de manera exclusiva, a su destinatario y contiene > información confidencial y sujeta al secreto profesional, cuya divulgación no > está permitida por la ley. En caso de haber recibido este mensaje por error, > le rogamos que, de forma inmediata, nos lo comunique mediante correo > electrónico remitido a nuestra atención y proceda a su eliminación, así como > a la de cualquier documento adjunto al mismo. Asimismo, le comunicamos que la > distribución, copia o utilización de este mensaje, o de cualquier documento > adjunto al mismo, cualquiera que fuera su finalidad, están prohibidas por la > ley. > > ***************** PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL **************** > We hereby inform you, as addressee of this message, that e-mail and Internet > do not guarantee the confidentiality, nor the completeness or proper > reception of the messages sent and, thus, STACKOPS TECHNOLOGIES S.L. does not > assume any liability for those circumstances. Should you not agree to the use > of e-mail or to communications via Internet, you are kindly requested to > notify us immediately. This message is intended exclusively for the person to > whom it is addressed and contains privileged and confidential information > protected from disclosure by law. If you are not the addressee indicated in > this message, you should immediately delete it and any attachments and notify > the sender by reply e-mail. In such case, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution, copying or use of this message or any > attachments, for any purpose, is strictly prohibited by law. > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
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