Hey Rich,
On 13.09.2022 05:43, Rich Brown wrote:
Hello Arınç,
Thank you for persisting in correcting my understanding. I appreciate the link to the
dsa.rst document. I now realize that as you and jow have said, "DSA is simply a way
to give each port of a switch its own name" so it can be configured.
But if I'm reading it right, there's a clash between your definitions (say, in
https://openwrt.org/playground/arinc9/network.interfaces) and the LuCI interface and the /etc/config/wirelsss
terminology. If I'm reading it right, "config device" controls the configuration of interfaces,
while "config interface" does what your DSA terminology calls "networks". Is this correct?
Exactly. Slight correction, it's computer networking rather than DSA
terminology.
If my observation is correct, how can we correct the terminology across all of
OpenWrt? Thanks.
This is roughly the pages I'd like under the "Networking" section of the
OpenWrt Wiki:
- Network & Network Interfaces
- DSA interfaces should be put and the dsa.rst document linked here.
- Bridge VLAN Filtering
- Configuring Networks & Interfaces
- This can be a more generic, simple version of the "Network basics
/etc/config/network" page. That page needs improvements in any case.
- Converting to DSA should be included here.
- Configuring the DSA interfaces on DSA Mini-Tutorial should be
included here.
The page structure is all blurry at the moment. Bridge VLAN filtering
could be explained under the bridge interface on the "Network & Network
Interfaces page." The "Configuring Networks & Interfaces" page could be
merged with "Network basics /etc/config/network".
It should progressively get better as we work on it.
Rich
PS I edited the DSA Mini-tutorial to strike through the entire Terminology
section pending the outcome of this discussion. Thanks again.
That part should be corrected with my comments and put on the "Network &
Network Interfaces" page. I'll handle that. In a few weeks. Hopefully.
Arınç
On Sep 11, 2022, at 6:45 PM, Arınç ÜNAL <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12.09.2022 00:28, Rich Brown wrote:
I think I see where I went wrong. I have updated the definitions in the DSA
Terminology page to incorporate what I understand from this conversation. See:
https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/network/dsa/dsa-mini-tutorial#terminology
Is this getting closer to a set of good definitions? Thanks.
It's much better than before. Though, the terminology section explains computer
networking rather than DSA.
Interfaces and networks are beyond any sort of classification under any OSI
layer.
Interface is what makes the data transfer happen. It's not a protocol you can
classify under an OSI layer.
Network is the representation of computers (anything with the ability of
computing) sending data to each other through interfaces. It represents the
EVERY THING of communication.
Each network entry on OpenWrt would mean that your router is a part of that
network connected through an interface. Then, you can configure your computer
(call this our router) to transmit and receive data in certain way.
For this network which we're connected to, through this interface:
Send data with this IP address, analyse received data for this range of IP
addresses and act different when something we defined matches. Send data with
this MAC address, listen for this MAC address on the received data. Send DHCP
packets, listen for DHCP packets, etc. Does this make sense?
Getting back to DSA, DSA doesn't have much to do with any of these. Like it's
said multiple times in this thread (under a few different subjects), at its
core, it creates a network interface for each switch port. This documentation
should be enough to explain the terminology.
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/networking/dsa/dsa.rst
On top of this, I'd like to give two configuration examples for any ethernet
interfaces, including the interfaces created by DSA.
- One without bridge VLAN filtering
- Only lan interfaces on the bridge, VLAN-unaware forwarding.
- Keep wan interface separate.
- No bridge, use each interface separately.
- One with bridge VLAN filtering
- All interfaces on the bridge, VLAN-aware forwarding.
My "Converting to DSA" page already follows the second configuration.
Arınç
Rich
On Sep 10, 2022, at 9:47 AM, Arınç ÜNAL <[email protected]> wrote:
On 10.09.2022 14:59, Rich Brown wrote:
I got the following definitions from Arınç, I am taking the liberty of opening
this to the entire list, so we can refine these definitions together. I include
some questions in-line to clarify the definitions.
As a start, certain terms have cropped up multiple times in this discussion.
Could I ask for definitions for the following terms?
Network:
A network represents a group of computers communicating with each other.
Are there other constraints for what comprises a network? For example, which of
these would be considered to be "a network" in our DSA discussion?
- Computers in the same subnet range
That's a network.
- Computers on the same VLAN
That's a network.
- Computers physically attached to a switch or bridge (perhaps on
different subnets)
That'd be multiple networks but I guess that's technically a single network
since computers on different subnets can still communicate with each other at
the second layer.
The means of delivering data in between (switch, bridge etc.) is also expected
on the examples above.
- Are there other synonyms for "network"?
I don't believe so.
Network Interface:
A network interface is the point of interconnection, implemented on the
software, between computers.
- I had earlier written "... physical connections that convey bits/frames to
other computers ... such as individual Ethernet switch ports, wireless radios, USB
networking devices, VLANs, or virtual ethernets."
- How much of this is correct? What should be added or removed?
- What about bridges, tunnels, alias interfaces - include or exclude
them? Why?
- Must a network interface to be "implemented in software"?
That's what a network interface is. It's a software term.
- Or do you mean that the network interface is the "software
representation" of a physical connection?
Software representation of interconnection, doesn't have to be physical.
Interface:
Short for network interface.
- Can we *always* treat this as a synonym for "network interface"?
I believe so.
Device:
Another term for network interface, used a lot on Linux kernel development.
- Can we *always* treat this as a synonym for "network interface"?
No. Outside of Linux driver development, I don't see this widely used in
computer networking software.
Netdev:
A mailing list for all network-related Linux stuff.
https://docs.kernel.org/process/maintainer-netdev.html#what-is-netdev
- Is "netdev" used commonly in DSA/OpenWrt as a formal term?
- If not (and if we need to rename something in config files), could the term
"netdev" provide a new word that isn't ambiguous?
I don't understand what you're getting at?
Arınç
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