Peter, Thanks for you comments again. I have outlined in bold some responses.
In your OGD V9 #213 response to the other Peter, you said: "The vietnamese (Paphiopedilum) species are now so prevalent due to flasked seedling trade that the threat to the wild populations (what is left) is greatly reduced from plant collectors." and "Getting the plants into cultivation as quickly as possible through seed production is the best means to prevent species loss from exploitation." Sorry, but I have to disagree. In Central Vietnam in April this year, street-traders offered me illegally-collected flowering-size specimens of P. callosum for 15,000 VnD (about US$ 0.90). The traders clearly didn't value them much ... they were asking 5 times as much for Dendrobium amabile in full bloom. This was "tourist" price ... to a local, the asking price would have been much lower, maybe one-tenth as much. Also, this was "asking price" ... I didn't haggle to find out what the "selling" price would have been. And I didn't buy anything, either. My perspective, living in this part of the world, is totally different to yours. I see an increase in the threat to wild populations from commercial collectors, not a reduction. Orchid-growing has always been popular in Asia, and as people become more affluent, more and more are starting to grow orchids ... and then they get hooked and expand their collections, just like people do in the US. These people also travel more and buy more orchids to take home. In the last decade there has been a staggering increase in Asian affluence (eg China's economic miracle), and a corresponding staggering increase intra-regional tourism. This has created markets for orchid-sales where none existed a decade ago. Orchid-selling is booming. As you travel around the region, you see roadside stalls selling orchids. A decade ago these stalls were run by local farmers for selling their farm produce. Nowadays they supplement their farm-produce income by selling wild-collected orchids to the tourists. Peter, My point had to do more with exports. What happens in a particular country has to do with that country's own government and the education of it's people. Paph. callosum is no longer needed or required here in the west at least. I remember back in 1978 and 79 I used to import this plant from Thailand. The price I paid then was around 30 to 50 cents each. Today we produce all we want from seed, most from select clones from those early imports I made. The point is that demand for wild collected plants is really non existent when there are supplies of readily available, superior varieties at least here in the states, Europe, Taiwan and Japan. I keep hearing these reports of people selling thousands of niveum or callosum every year. This has gone on since the 1960's yet somehow there seems to be more plants available. Perhaps the traders didn't value the callosums much because they were so abundant in nature? Or because there wasn't much demand for them? I have traveled to your part of the world a few times. I understand what you are saying about the affluence, the economic boom etc. but it is all a matter of will power, education and most importantly solving poverty issues. Poverty drives many people to deforest land for monetary gain or food. Utilizing any resources at all is most important to these peoples survival. Ultimately the question goes to population and how to elevate peoples income in a way that is not necessarily exploitive of fragile resources like forests and all that is within them. I'm afraid that Art. Prop. plants provide no competition. Not only are they far more expensive (can you offer flowering-size P. callosum for less than 90 US cents ?), but they are not available in most of the places where these tourists actually buy orchids. My focus is on approved legal trade in ART PROP specimens. The ever-increasing publicity surrounding orchids actually makes more people want them. Your Art. Prop. actually encourages people to buy orchids, thereby making things worse. And yes, the books and articles I write have exactly the same result. People are using my "A to Z" book as a shopping aid ... they show the book to the locals on the roadside stalls and say "do you have this one "? While I sympathise with your desires (I have nothing against the free trade of Art. Prop. orchids), they don't seem very relevant to the situation that I see all around me. In your response to me, you said: "require that all nurseries in any signatory country to be certified for art prop export. The various countries could in fact certify the nurseries under an overall umbrella or process overseen by CITES but CITES would be the registrar in the end." Jerry, this is pie-in-the-sky. Other than Singapore, I cannot think of a single tropical 3rd-world countries that is in a position to do this.... hell, they cannot even keep track of every small-scale orchid trader. Should your proposal ever get placed before the COP, most range-countries' immediate response would be that it is yet another attempt to deprive them of the profits of their biodiversity. Look at it from their point of view. All orchid species to be placed on Appendix 1, while allowing free trade in Art. Prop. orchids ? That translates as an attempt to kill-off indigenous orchid nurseries in range countries while creating a mechanism by which rich countries can corner the world market. On this point I must disagree. Peru, Ecuador and Brazil are now requiring that export nurseries produce and sell art-prop specimens only. This allows nurseries within these countries to profit from their own bio-diversity by allowing them to collect a limited number of plants from the wild, propagating them from seed and then selling the seed grown plants to other countries. In many cases these plants can be sold within their own country. This benefits the country by creating a business entity that hires local people not just for the short amount of time it would take to collect a plant and sell it but to grow it over months or years and then sell it. Peru is educating it's people about bio-diversity and has made arrest recently in regards to illegal collecting. How does this deprive range countries from profiting from their own bio-diversity? Your proposal contains no mechanism by which the range-countries' can profit from their own biodiversity (biodiversity ownership is a red-hot issue ... look at the furore over H5N1 samples), and contains nothing that encourages range-countries to develop their own orchid-industries. There is nothing in it for them. They'll never vote for it. Phragmipedium kovachii from Peru is a great example of doing things just in the way I am proposing. The money that has been earned selling flasks of this plant has gone back into the country of Peru to the nurseries that have the permission to grow, sell and export these plants. These nurseries have been able to improve their facilities and improve the lives of the owners and employees. There is something in it for them. Sincerely, Jerry Lee Fischer Orchids Limited 4630 Fernbrook Lane N. Plymouth, Minnesota 55446 USA Toll-free: 1-800-669-6006 Local: 763-559-6425 Fax: 763-557-6956 Website: www.orchidweb.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________________________ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) [email protected] http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
