Wow. I know people have complained about this list being a little slow, but
if this is what I get from the lead developer of JBoss on how to fix up
JBoss performance to compare to Orion's, then ... well ... perhaps I should
be spending more time on this list. I'm a little disappointed. I have some
interest in both JBoss and Orion, and it's frustrating to get this kind of a
response from a key player in the JBoss community.
- Geoffrey
: -----Original Message-----
: From: marc fleury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 2:34 PM
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: RE: [JBoss-user] Redux of Performance Issues
:
:
: look dude,
:
: get the integrated jboss-tomcat stack you are running
: non-optimized out of
: stack, period.
:
: come back when you have set it up, or don't we don't care,
:
: marcf
:
: |-----Original Message-----
: |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
: |[EMAIL PROTECTED]
: |Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 2:09 PM
: |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: |Subject: [JBoss-user] Redux of Performance Issues
: |
: |
: |For reasons unknown, this message hasn't been going out to the
: |list. Trying
: |again.
: |
: |--
: |
: |Okay, I've clearly managed to piss off a few people by my
: concerns about
: |JBoss performance.
: |
: |Let me start out by saying that I'd be more than happy to get my
: |application
: |working speedily under JBoss. Orion's documentation is poor
: at best, and
: |JBoss is fully open-source. I have a great deal of respect
: for some of
: |JBoss's technology (the verifier and deployer are probably
: the best I've
: |seen), and where it's coming from. I chose JBoss for the initial
: |development because of its reputation and my own interests.
: |
: |That said, if the performance I'm getting out of JBoss is
: the best I can
: |expect, or, at least, the best I can manage to get, then I
: |absolutely cannot
: |use it. Not because I think it 'sucks rocks', because it
: doesn't, but
: |simply because it will not support the user load I need it to in
: |any sort of
: |cost-effective manner. Some of you would probably be just
: as happy to see
: |me go somewhere else, from the tone of your emails, but I'd
: personally
: |rather find a way to get the performance out of JBoss, for
: this or other
: |projects.
: |
: |And, ultimately, it seems as if the performance I'm asking for is
: |relatively
: |reasonable. I expect a certain amount of overhead in EJB
: performance, and
: |I'm not asking to duplicate the speed of a bean-only
: implementation. But
: |supporting a maximum of 25 concurrent users on a decent (if
: not maxed-out)
: |server seems ... suspiciously slow.
: |
: |It may be that I've missed some settings to speed things up. It
: |may be that
: |our application's architecture is better suited to Orion
: than to JBoss.
: |Whatever it is, I'd like to find out. So I've joined the
: JBoss list, and
: |I'm here to ask some questions. I'm not trying to promote
: Orion, or insult
: |JBoss. I like bits of both of them, and the reasons for
: that, I can get
: |into another day. Ultimately, however, I'd rather support
: JBoss as an
: |open-source appserver, if I can.
: |
: |--
: |
: |Now, on to the details. Some of you pointed out, and
: rightly so, that I
: |hadn't provided much in the way of details of what I've
: tried, which is
: |true. I wanted to start off by finding out if the kind of
: numbers I was
: |talking about seemed realistic or not, based on the
: experience of people
: |who'd spent more time with JBoss than I have, but it's
: probably fair to say
: |that you couldn't really say without knowing a lot more about my
: |application. So let's get into a few details.
: |
: |Let's start with versions. I did some of my original EJB
: |experimentation on
: |JBoss-2.4.1. We started developing a project on
: JBoss-2.4.1a w/ Embedded
: |Tomcat, which was the latest JBoss/Tomcat grouping at the
: time. We started
: |noticing performance concerns then. When Tomcat 4 came out,
: we moved to
: |JBoss-2.4.3 w/ Embedded Catalina, so that we could try a few
: things, and
: |found it not to be slower, so we stayed with it.
: |
: |After we reached a point where we needed to see better
: performance, we did
: |some optimizing of our app with a profiler, and tried JBoss
: 2.4.3 w/ Resin,
: |which we already knew to be fast. That gave us a minor speed
: |boost, but not
: |very much, leading me to believe that JBoss might be the
: cause of some of
: |our performance. By comparison, Orion 1.5.2 seems to be
: very much faster.
: |
: |All of this is running on Windows 2000. The versions of
: Tomcat are 3.2.3
: |and 4.0, as far as I know. The version of Resin is the latest
: |version as of
: |a few weeks ago, I'd have to go check. If it's important, I will.
: |
: |Processor speed depended, but developers are working, largely, on
: |PIII-700MHzs, and we did most of our load-testing on a Ghz P4.
: |
: |Tuned updates are on, jaws debug is off, and logging was set
: as low as we
: |really could expect it to be.
: |
: |Our performance numbers were derived in several ways - by using the
: |Microsoft Web Application Stress tool (since we've used that
: in the past,
: |and haven't yet found a better alternative; if you have
: suggestions, I'm
: |happy to hear them), watching memory/processor load on the box
: |being tested,
: |junit test times and subjective experience.
: |
: |Our initial concerns came out of JUnit test times. Our EJB tests
: |(which are
: |pretty thorough, I'll admit) are taking several seconds,
: whereas the time
: |required to test a hand-rolled bean solution was usually
: well, well under a
: |second. HttpUnit tests are taking tens of seconds, instead
: of seconds.
: |This began to concern me, but we didn't need performance at
: an early stage,
: |and I knew I could replace Tomcat and/or JBoss if necessary.
: |
: |Once we started to use the Web Application Stress Tool,
: though, we started
: |to get really concerned. After some profiling to speed a
: few things up, we
: |were unable to get more than about 20 simultaneous users on
: the application
: |without slowing things down significantly, getting Time To Last
: |Byte on some
: |of the more intense pages up past ten seconds, which is far
: too long. Even
: |running Resin and JBoss together was getting us only up to 25. The
: |processor usage on the server while the load test was running was
: |practically solid at 100% for the bulk of the test and the
: JVM doesn't seem
: |to be using up all the memory it has already, so we didn't
: increase the JVM
: |memory space.
: |
: |By comparison, under Orion, I can get 350 users on the same
: |application, and
: |the processor load is only up around 65%.
: |
: |This concerns me. The application is going to be used by quite
: |probably 200
: |users at once, possibly double or triple that, on a regular
: basis, and
: |perhaps up to 2000 users under peak loads. That's not a
: |massively-heavy web
: |application, in my mind. Not being able to get past 25 users
: |under JBoss is
: |just not going to cut it, so if I have to put up with poor
: documentation,
: |closed source, and shelling out for an orion deployment
: license to get the
: |speed I need, I will.
: |
: |But if you all can recommend alternatives to get speed out
: of JBoss, I'd
: |love to hear it.
: |
: |--
: |
: |There's been a number of suggestions to try JBoss/Jetty.
: I'll give it a
: |shot, although I don't know much about Jetty. I'd also like to throw
: |together a simple performance test that I could use to
: demonstrate my issue
: |a lot better than the existing application, but I don't know if
: |I'm going to
: |have time to do that, particularly since I also want to evaluate the
: |newly-free HP-AS to get some feeling for it in comparison to
: both JBoss and
: |Orion. It may turn out that we go with Orion for this
: project simply to
: |save time figuring out our other options. If we can get acceptable
: |performance out of Orion in the near term, it may be more
: cost-effective
: |than spending time diagnosing our JBoss issues.
: |
: |If there are suggestions on how we can increase our performance,
: |or requests
: |for more information, I'm open to hear them. Even if I
: don't have time to
: |implement them on this project, I'd love to know how I could
: make use of
: |JBoss on future projects without encountering this kind of
: performance
: |issue.
: |
: |Thanks in advance,
: |
: | - Geoffrey
: |
: |__________________________________________________________
: |Geoffrey Wiseman: Internet Applications Manager
: |Medium One
: |t. 416.977.2101 x. 529
: |http://www.mediumone.com/
: |__________________________________________________________
: |Think it. Build it. Work it.
: |
: |
: |
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