Greg wrote
>I think Dierk's post is brilliant as a possibly less-inaccurate
way of approaching the issue of the Essenes.<
I don't need to share its water to analyze the guppy .
[snip]
>.Pliny's tale is hearsay
of the apologetic explanation?<
He had permission to the library of Agrippa...
>(b) that there was an Essene gate in Jerusalem, even if it
could be shown to go back (i.e. the name) to the beginning of
the Temple with Herod, would not necessarily attest the
existence of the full-blown Essene sect of the classical authors.<
The designation of the gate is exclusively Josephean (Bell v 145).
You may connect that, however, with 'the man bearing a pitcher of water' in
Mk 14.13 - a woman's job in the normal case.
The first interesting 'qumranite' men occurs in NT in the figure of Simon
the leper (Mt 26.6 et par), ha-Zarua, probably a corrupted ha-Zanua; the
close similarities between Nun and Resh in the qumranite paleography are
known, I believe.
>We don't know where the name Essene came from or how
it got picked up, and its prehistory and the prehistory of the
group is very murky (as Dierk brings out).<
Not every idealized group has a prehistoric historicity.
>(c) The only actual traditions claiming Essene figures prior to
Herod are in the Essene prophets-source used by
Josephus, a story with wonderful Essene figures of the
past such as Moses, Judah, Menahem, and Simon.<
.wonderful, miraculous.
The figures as well as the events that are dedicated to them.
You know Sigmund Freud's_Moses and the Monotheistic Religion'?
[snip]
<Dierk raises
a good point that it was general practice to create ancestral
lineages and genealogies (in the case of the Essenes, apparently
all the way back to Moses). These should be subject to the
standard critical scrutiny and can hardly be regarded unequivocally
as evidence for the existence of Essenes pre-Herod.<
. back to the 'Lawgiver', and that's merely a reference to an authoritative
'prophet like Moses', not to Moses himself.
>(d) The basic picture suggested by Dierk is that the Essenes were
a creation, but at the same time not a creation.<
As it is with all idealizing looks through sympathizers' eyes - the idol
shines brilliantly trough the milky glasses.
> It was real
1st CE phenomenae (plus traditions of things earlier, all the way
back to Moses) with spin. This would provide an excellent
explanation in principle for why there are no Essenes in the New
Testament, or why there is no Fourth Philosophy activity in
Josephus all the time between 6 CE (Judas) and the First
Revolt.<
There was sufficient activity of the 4th philosophy, for it was the
philosophy of the Zealot Movement.
<Note that Josephus says the Fourth Philosophy was
basically observant Pharisees who simply had a penchant for
liberty and a distaste for Romans<
Take another word for Pharisee and you get the House of Peleg. *g*
Indeed, the Zealot 'Covenant of Phineas' is unknown to the DSS.
[snip]
>(e) The mention of Bergmeier's work which he backed off from
is interesting (and unknown to me).<
Bergemeier, R._ Die Essenerberichte des Flavius Josephus. Quellenstudien zu
den Essenertexten im Werk des jüdischen Historiographen_ Kampen 1993
>What is interesting
is that of all the discussion in the Qumran field regarding Essenes,
something along lines Dierk proposes I cannot think of having
been argued directly in print.<
I don't need another publisher in the moment, and - vs common
interpretation - we have no print media here.
>Any bibliographic references
showing otherwise appreciated.<
I'd prefer reading instead of collecting. Therefore I'd recommend a single
book first, a book that shows a rough outline of the relevant period:
Hengel, Martin_ The Zealots, Investigations into the Jewish Freedom Movement
in the period from Herod I until 70 A.D; 3rd ed._ Edinburgh 1997.
In any case thx for your comment, Greg.
Dierk
For private reply, e-mail to "Dierk van den Berg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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