Let me add one more comment to this comment. There are plenty of Sumerian
gods with EN or NIN (Lord/Lady) as the first component in their names. UTU
is not one of them.
Victor



On Tue, 7 May 2002, avigdor horovitz wrote:

> Dear John,
> I find your comments as off base as the original suggestion I commented
> on, and inall due respect for your imagination I respectfully dismiss it
> out of hand.
> Please note that the sumerian sungod was named UTU, the Sumerian word for
> sun. May I suggest that you do some reading on the development of
> Mesopotamian religion. Start with Jacobsen, Treasures of Darkness.
> Victor
> And now I will go all the way down to the bottom of this letter to let teh
> trailor loose. It's a long way down!
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, John Lupia wrote:
> 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> > Excuse me for being blunt, but your assertion is
> > ridiculous. The semitic word for sun is $VmV$. It is
> > shared by all semitic languages (Heb $eme$, Akkadian
> > $am$su, Ugaritic $p$, Arabic sams, etc). The Akkadian
> > nominal form would be $am$u with the nominative
> > ending. The form $ama$ is the absolute form used in
> > personal names, so $ama$ is simply the way one
> > adresses the sun (Mr. Sun). THe word for the heavenly
> > luminary precedes its deification, and does not derive
> > from it.  
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Victor:
> > 
> > The fact that the name $ama$ could mean Mr. Sun
> > presupposes that it could also have meant Lord Sun
> > ranking him among the nobility, in a monarchial
> > structure, where, perhaps, $ama$ was its king.  We
> > cannot rule out a form of pagan idolatry where a
> > deceased king is honored and considered the rising sun
> > in the eternal life.  In this case then the origin of
> > the name does not precludes that it was involved in
> > its very origin as a religio-mythic cult of a
> > primogenetor king who eternally lives and reigns and
> > who can give us enlightenment.  Judaism seems to have
> > broken off from this cultic sun-worship and imputed to
> > the one-uncreated-God the faculties and personality of
> > $ama$ and established monotheism as an outgrowth and a
> > response to this.
> > 
> > Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> > Although the sun may have been adored in Israelite
> > religion, biblical or post biblical, as has been
> > asserted by many scholars (see, for example Morton
> > Smith's article on Helios in Palestine in the Orlinsky
> > Volume of Eretz Israel, or Hadley? articles and
> > books), your argument is simply wrong, backward, and
> > irrelevant.
> > 
> > I agree that the Israeli sun worshipping would be
> > irrelevant since it would have been post Sumerian
> > period which first gave evidence to this phenomenon. 
> > Conseuently, Judaism would have been a development as
> > an outgrowth from Sumerian culture, which appears to
> > have lapsed back into its former Sumerian form from
> > time to time.
> > 
> > Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> > As for adoring the rising sun, in particular, I might
> > refer you to the famous Sun Disk inscription of
> > Nebobaladan (King, Babylonian Boundary Stones no. 36)
> > which tells that the statue of $ama$ was lost, and
> > until it was "miraculously" rediscovered, it was
> > substituted for by a "niphu".  Now, niphu designates a
> > sundisk model, round and decorated with a four pointed
> > star with wavy lines characteristic of $ama$ between
> > each arm of the star. If you look at a picture of the
> > tablet you will see such a niphu. What is relevant to
> > your suggestion about this, is that the Akkadian verb
> > napahu, from which niphu is derived, means to break
> > out in flames, and also "sun rise", so if we may learn
> > anything from this it may be that the accepted
> > non-anthropormorphic symbol of the Babylonian Sun God
> > $ama$ was a model of the rising sun.
> > Victor
> > 
> > Yes, Victor, $ama$ would have been associated with the
> > sun and time, hence he would be considered as
> > "father-time" or "the eternal one", or, perhaps
> > called, "Lord Sun-Rise".  It is from this origin that
> > it appears that Judaism was born.  Substituting or
> > replacing "Ehad" the "One" the eternal and uncreated
> > God, who is the source of all creation, with $ama$,
> > forms the new monotheistic religion of Judaism.  The
> > first Jews had adored the sun but as the "Father" who
> > could enlighten us and give revelations.  He could
> > speak through prophets, kings, priests, and reveal
> > himself to the human family.  The disolvement between
> > monolitheistic cult worship with the sun and without
> > it seems to have drifted in and out suggesting priests
> > from different schools existed and that the high
> > priests were selected shifting between these different
> > schools from time to time.
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > =====
> > John N. Lupia
> > 501 North Avenue B-1
> > Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731
> 
> For private reply, e-mail to avigdor horovitz  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ---------------------------------------------------

For private reply, e-mail to avigdor horovitz  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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