Regarding Shamash (the sun) in Jewish cult,

Lupia and Horowitz properly pointed out evidences that
I couldn`t place better.

I guess that many would find horrified at the
possibilities that the "Amen" we still use in prayers
and "Adon" (the Lord) could come from Egyptian
"Amen-Ra" and "Athon" of Amarna (Akhet.Athon), but the
possibility is real.

Honest and frank facing of fact is always needed in
science.

R. MArtinez

--- orion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> orion              Tuesday, May 7 2002             
> Volume 2002 : Number 018
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT)
> From: John Lupia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: orion-list Re: orion V2002 #17
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> Excuse me for being blunt, but your assertion is
> ridiculous. The semitic word for sun is $VmV$. It is
> shared by all semitic languages (Heb $eme$, Akkadian
> $am$su, Ugaritic $p$, Arabic sams, etc). The
> Akkadian
> nominal form would be $am$u with the nominative
> ending. The form $ama$ is the absolute form used in
> personal names, so $ama$ is simply the way one
> adresses the sun (Mr. Sun). THe word for the
> heavenly
> luminary precedes its deification, and does not
> derive
> from it.  
> 
> 
> Dear Victor:
> 
> The fact that the name $ama$ could mean Mr. Sun
> presupposes that it could also have meant Lord Sun
> ranking him among the nobility, in a monarchial
> structure, where, perhaps, $ama$ was its king.  We
> cannot rule out a form of pagan idolatry where a
> deceased king is honored and considered the rising
> sun
> in the eternal life.  In this case then the origin
> of
> the name does not precludes that it was involved in
> its very origin as a religio-mythic cult of a
> primogenetor king who eternally lives and reigns and
> who can give us enlightenment.  Judaism seems to
> have
> broken off from this cultic sun-worship and imputed
> to
> the one-uncreated-God the faculties and personality
> of
> $ama$ and established monotheism as an outgrowth and
> a
> response to this.
> 
> Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> Although the sun may have been adored in Israelite
> religion, biblical or post biblical, as has been
> asserted by many scholars (see, for example Morton
> Smith's article on Helios in Palestine in the
> Orlinsky
> Volume of Eretz Israel, or Hadley? articles and
> books), your argument is simply wrong, backward, and
> irrelevant.
> 
> I agree that the Israeli sun worshipping would be
> irrelevant since it would have been post Sumerian
> period which first gave evidence to this phenomenon.
> 
> Conseuently, Judaism would have been a development
> as
> an outgrowth from Sumerian culture, which appears to
> have lapsed back into its former Sumerian form from
> time to time.
> 
> Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> As for adoring the rising sun, in particular, I
> might
> refer you to the famous Sun Disk inscription of
> Nebobaladan (King, Babylonian Boundary Stones no.
> 36)
> which tells that the statue of $ama$ was lost, and
> until it was "miraculously" rediscovered, it was
> substituted for by a "niphu".  Now, niphu designates
> a
> sundisk model, round and decorated with a four
> pointed
> star with wavy lines characteristic of $ama$ between
> each arm of the star. If you look at a picture of
> the
> tablet you will see such a niphu. What is relevant
> to
> your suggestion about this, is that the Akkadian
> verb
> napahu, from which niphu is derived, means to break
> out in flames, and also "sun rise", so if we may
> learn
> anything from this it may be that the accepted
> non-anthropormorphic symbol of the Babylonian Sun
> God
> $ama$ was a model of the rising sun.
> Victor
> 
> Yes, Victor, $ama$ would have been associated with
> the
> sun and time, hence he would be considered as
> "father-time" or "the eternal one", or, perhaps
> called, "Lord Sun-Rise".  It is from this origin
> that
> it appears that Judaism was born.  Substituting or
> replacing "Ehad" the "One" the eternal and uncreated
> God, who is the source of all creation, with $ama$,
> forms the new monotheistic religion of Judaism.  The
> first Jews had adored the sun but as the "Father"
> who
> could enlighten us and give revelations.  He could
> speak through prophets, kings, priests, and reveal
> himself to the human family.  The disolvement
> between
> monolitheistic cult worship with the sun and without
> it seems to have drifted in and out suggesting
> priests
> from different schools existed and that the high
> priests were selected shifting between these
> different
> schools from time to time.
> 
> Best regards,
> John
> 
> 
> =====
> John N. Lupia
> 501 North Avenue B-1
> Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> For private reply, e-mail to John Lupia
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> -
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 05:28:11 +0300 (IDT)
> From: avigdor horovitz  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: orion-list Re: orion V2002 #17
> 
> Dear John,
> I find your comments as off base as the original
> suggestion I commented
> on, and inall due respect for your imagination I
> respectfully dismiss it
> out of hand.
> Please note that the sumerian sungod was named UTU,
> the Sumerian word for
> sun. May I suggest that you do some reading on the
> development of
> Mesopotamian religion. Start with Jacobsen,
> Treasures of Darkness.
> Victor
> And now I will go all the way down to the bottom of
> this letter to let teh
> trailor loose. It's a long way down!
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, John Lupia wrote:
> 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > Victor Horovitz  wrote:
> > Excuse me for being blunt, but your assertion is
> > ridiculous. The semitic word for sun is $VmV$. It
> is
> > shared by all semitic languages (Heb $eme$,
> Akkadian
> > $am$su, Ugaritic $p$, Arabic sams, etc). The
> Akkadian
> > nominal form would be $am$u with the nominative
> > ending. The form $ama$ is the absolute form used
> in
> > personal names, so $ama$ is simply the way one
> > adresses the sun (Mr. Sun). THe word for the
> heavenly
> > luminary precedes its deification, and does not
> derive
> > from it.  
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Victor:
> 
=== message truncated ===


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