Of Interest: A Muslim professor discusses "moderate <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islamfortoday.com%2Fkhan08.htm> Muslims." His definition of this term should be read very carefully. Also notice that he includes the head of the Muslim Brotherhood in Europe, Tariq Ramadan, as one of this group. China has its problems with jihad <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fhi%2Fasia-pacifi c%2F7497243.stm> . And then there were the bus <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fibloga.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F07%2Fjih ad-in-china.html> bombings. A Muslim doctor on how to take over an American hospital and make it a Muslim <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.muslimlinkpaper.com> one. Dhimmitude <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.camera.org%2Findex.asp%3Fx_print% 3D1%26x_context%3D2%26x_outlet%3D38%26x_article%3D1471> at the Washington Post. Debating About Islam Once you know something about Islam and try to talk to others, you may find yourself in a debate. Here are some of the "standards". CAN YOU READ ARABIC? Everyone from Muslims to atheists uses this. The implication is that Arabic is a unique language that can't be translated and therefore, how could you know what you are talking about? First, the Koran claims to be a universal message for all humanity for all times. If the message is universal, then it must be able to be understood by all. If the message cannot be understood by everybody, then by definition it is not universal. So, which is it? Another thing to consider is that over half of the Koran is about kafirs <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fblog%2Fkafir %2F> and politics. Do you really think that a political message about a kafir cannot be understood by the kafir? If so, what is that message that cannot be understood? It must be made clear which Arabic is being spoken about. The Arabic of the Koran is classical Arabic which is about as similar to modern Arabic as the English of Chaucer and Beowulf is similar to modern English. Said in another way, not even a modern Arab can read classical Arabic. It is estimated that fewer than a thousand scholars who read classical Arabic can compose a paragraph on a random topic. And what about the nearly billion Muslims who don't even understand modern Arabic? If it is necessary to understand classical Arabic to understand what the Koran is about, then how can those billion non-Arabic-speaking Muslims understand <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fstore%2Fprim ary-doctrine-books%2Fproduct%2Fa-simple-koran%2F> the Koran? And if they cannot understand the Koran how can they be Muslims? Ask the person who presents the argument if they have any opinions about the doctrine of Christianity. Then ask them if they read Hebrew, Aramaic or Biblical Greek? If they do not read those languages how can they form an opinion about something they have to read in translation? Of course they can read it and form an opinion, the same way we can read and understand the Koran. A secondary question is why would anyone want to believe that the Koran couldn't be understood? What is the purpose of believing that out of all the books in the world, why would there be one that cannot be translated? The Koran is only 18% of the total doctrine. Would the questioner believe that the other 82% of the doctrine not be understood as well? WELL, THE CHRISTIANS DID... This response usually comes after some grim facts are given about Islam. This is probably the most common response from non-Christians. The best response is to ask if they have a reason that they don't want to talk about Islam, since they want to change the subject. The average person knows next to nothing about Islam and sometimes this gambit is merely a way to steer the conversation into a familiar ground. They are just trying to prove that Islam is not any worse than Christianity. At this point, welcome the chance to compare the two. Choose the ground of comparison. The best place to start is the founders. Compare Mohammed <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fstore%2Fprim ary-doctrine-books%2Fproduct%2Fmohammed-and-the-unbelievers%2F> to Christ. The other good comparison is in ethics. Compare Islam's dualistic ethics to unitary Golden Rule ethics. Another version of this is that the person will compare some failed Christian to a "good" Muslim they know at work. It is fairly useless to do personal comparisons. How do you choose which Muslim out of 1.5 billion Muslims and which Christian do you choose out of a couple billion Christians? A variation on the "Well, the Christians did ." is "What about the Crusades"? This is the time to say you welcome a comparison of the Crusades to jihad. Start with the question of why the Crusades were needed. Islamic jihad caused the invasion of the Middle East. The Crusades were a response to a cry for help by the tortured <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fstore%2Fsix- views-of-islam%2Fproduct%2Fmohammed-allah-and-the-christians%2F> and oppressed Christians in their native land. Did the Christians do some very wrong things? Yes, but notice that the Crusades have been over nearly a thousand years. Jihad is active today. And while we are at it, why do academic libraries have many books on the Crusades, which lasted only 200 years, and so few on jihad, which has lasted 1400 years? The West has analyzed the Crusades forever and has never analyzed jihad. I KNOW THIS MUSLIM AND HE SAYS... Why is the Muslim your friend knows the only Muslim out of 1.5 billion that makes him the expert on Islam? Remember, the average Muslim knows very little about the doctrine of Islam. Why? Because, historically the imams have acted as the high priests of Islam and they have never made the doctrine simple to understand. That is one way they keep their prestige and power. But once you know something about the doctrine, you can say that you know also know a Muslim, and his name is Mohammed, and what you say comes from <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fstore%2Fprim ary-doctrine-books%2Fproduct%2Fthe-political-traditions-of-mohammed%2F> the Sunna. In short, your Muslim, Mohammed, can beat your friend's Muslim on any issue of doctrine. If the Muslim your friend knows says something about Islam that agrees with Mohammed, then it is right. If what he says contradicts Mohammed, then he is wrong. So this Muslim your friend knows is either wrong or redundant, but never more right than Mohammed. I KNOW THIS MUSLIM AND HE IS A NICE MAN Probably so. What does that prove about Islam? He may follow the Golden Rule and not Islam. That is, he may be a poor Muslim and a good person. Now is the time to explain about the Islam of Mecca and the Islam of Medina and which one is the more powerful. It is also time to explain about dualism and how Islam always has two faces. Stay with doctrine and history of Islam, never get personal and talk about an individual Muslim. Actually, there is one way to talk about any Muslim, show how what they do and say follows the doctrine. Besides, you know this Muslim and his name is Mohammed. Don't talk about "Muslims," talk about Mohammed. THAT IS NOT THE REAL ISLAM If you are quoting the Koran or the Sunna, then it is the real Islam, by definition. The Koran and the Sunna are Islam, the real Islam. All other Islam, such as is found in the media, is the false Islam. There is only one real Islam, the doctrine of Islam. THEY DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT. This comes after you have revealed some horrific part of the doctrine. What do Muslims call themselves? The believers. What do they believe? The Koran and the Sunna. They say that is what they believe. Really believe. I KNOW THIS MUSLIM AND HE IS NOT VIOLENT This is a restating of, "I know this Muslim and he is good man." He may be a poor Muslim and a good man who follows the Golden Rule. But, the statement shows that there is no understanding of the duality <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fblog%2Fthe-s tudy-of-political-islam-2%2F> of Islam. The Koran has both violence and tolerance against the kafirs. Today in America the power of Islam is just getting started, so Islam is still weak. When Mohammed was weak in Mecca, he did not kill anybody. Islam is still in the first phase of jihad here. But the Koran says that one Muslim can beat two kafirs. It also says that Islam must be the dominant political system. So when Muslims reach a third of the population (that makes it 2 to 1), they will be in the full stage of Medina and violence becomes a standard operation. But even then, we know from the Sira, that many Muslims just don't have the stomach for the violence. The Sira shows that Muslims can support jihad many ways, besides personal violence. The "peaceful" Muslim you know is commanded to give money to Islamic charities and the charities give the money to the actual fighters. WHAT ABOUT THE VIOLENCE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT? Look at the violence in the Old Testament. It has two qualities-local and temporary. None of the violence is commanded to be global and eternal. In each case the violence is directed in a political struggle and when it was over it was over. The violence in the Trilogy is for all Muslims, in all places and for all time. Jihad is to stop only when every kafir submits. Look at Mohammed, the perfect example. He was involved with violence until the day he died. And on his deathbed he directed eternal violence against the kafirs when he said in his last breath: "Let there be neither Christian or Jew left in Arabia." IF ISLAM IS SO VIOLENT, HOW CAN IT BE SO SUCCESSFUL? The Sira records that when Islam committed violence, it attracted new followers. As Osama bin Laden says: "People like a winning horse." After 9/11 in the US, new followers joined Islam. Communism was a political system that preached, promised and delivered violence and it attracted many people. Many people love violence. Have you never paid any attention to Hollywood? Violence is piled upon violence and people line up to see it. Islam is growing rapidly. but most of the growth can be attributed to high birth rates, not conversion. Islam's growth in kafir countries is due to immigration, not conversion. Bill Warner Signup <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2F> for our weekly newletter. copyright 2008, CBSX, Inc. dba politicalislam.com <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2F> Use this as you will, just do not edit and give us credit. Permalink:http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/debating-about-islam-part-1/ <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicalislam.com%2Fblog%2Fdebat ing-about-islam-part-1%2F> Home <http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=8216357&msgid=163760&act=621L&c=1 62528&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.icontact.com%2F> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ -------------------------- Want to discuss this topic? 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