what month did the list start, peggy? i'm wondering how many messages you have from that date through march 9th, 1998. might be only 300 or 400?
-- Michael Herman Michael Herman Associates http://MichaelHerman.com http://RonanParkTrail.com http://ManorNeighbors.com http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org http://OpenSpaceWorld.org 312-280-7838 (mobile) On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Peggy Holman <[email protected]> wrote: > Michael, > > Many thanks for the research. I hope we can use the opportunity to also > convert the original list messages that date from 1996 that I've got on my > computer but aren't in the archives as part of the transition. > > And I'm certainly willing to contribute to the $500. This list has been a > gift that keeps giving! > > Peggy > > > On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Michael Herman wrote: > > harold -- here's more. i you suggested the mailman route i went looking > some more. i found this... > http://blog.anthonyrthompson.com/listserv-to-mailman/ and it seems to be > the blueprint for converting the archives we have into a format that the > mailman software would require. so we could blow off l-soft altogether. > > i still like the idea of migrating/converting/maintaining the publicly > searchable archive as first task and then creating a new list alongside of > other lists that exist, and send messages from all of them to the one > searchable archive. > > so this article i've found seems to prove that it's quite possible to make > the shift you're suggesting. then the question becomes... who can do it and > then, who can maintain the thing, who can handle ongoing support, admin, > updating and all that... and can that be done by anyone for the long term, > and can that possibly be done for less than $500 year. > > i've sent a message to the author of this conversion guide i've linked to > above and asked what conversion might cost, cuz i can understand in theory > what he's talking about, but i can't possibly implement the actual steps > he's detailed. > > m > > > > -- > > Michael Herman > Michael Herman Associates > > http://MichaelHerman.com > http://RonanParkTrail.com > http://ManorNeighbors.com > http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org > http://OpenSpaceWorld.org > > 312-280-7838 (mobile) > > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Michael Herman < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> harold -- the $500 is not really a cost we can get around. if we want to >> keep our 29000 messages. we need to run "listserv" (l-soft's brand name >> email discussion list software) in order to keep our archives publicly >> available and searchable. that cost includes hosting... but mostly it's for >> the use of the software. then the question of where the conversation >> continues is wide open. googlegroups is free and easy, so seemed a good >> first choice. but we can go anywhere with that. it's the archives that are >> not very easily written into another platform and the archives that actually >> require some spending (or dependence on the goodwill of some other >> organization already running the l-soft listserv software). >> >> does this make sense? >> >> >> m >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Herman >> Michael Herman Associates >> >> http://MichaelHerman.com >> http://RonanParkTrail.com >> http://ManorNeighbors.com >> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org >> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >> >> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Harold Shinsato <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> I can see you've put a lot of work into this already. I know that a lot >>> of times you get what you pay for - but it's not always a linear equation. >>> >>> There is a web hosting company - dreamhost.com - that offers full >>> service hosting free to US 501(c)(3) companies. They also offer listserve >>> type features - specifically the open source GNU "Mailman" software. >>> >>> This would also provide the feature of full portability (as long as we >>> could install the GNU mailman software on our webhosting company.) And since >>> many of these low cost web hosting companies are offering unlimited storage >>> at their $100 a year plans - it would be quite feasible to also port the >>> full message archive. And in the case of Dream host, it should be possible >>> for $0 a year. >>> >>> Googlegroups is a viable free option, and maybe we can get the listserve >>> style feature at a lower cost per year. >>> >>> Harold >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/19/10 7:32 PM, Michael Herman wrote: >>> >>> justin -- glad to talk through it with you. ring anytime. and the $500 >>> annually would go to l-soft (makers of "listserv" which powers the list. >>> the set-up fee would be for initiating the new list and migrating all users >>> and archives. the annual $500 covers dedicated hosting, list >>> maintenance/upgrades, sort of stuff. >>> >>> raffi -- one of the things i like about this particular solution is that >>> we anchor one big archive with the 29000 messages we have, but we continue >>> the conversation elsewhere, on a list called 'oslist' but also on any other >>> regional lists, with the content from all of them hitting the central >>> searchable archive. this means that where we have the conversation no >>> longer matters. start a googlegroup. if we hate that then we can move >>> someplace else, but wherever we go, we just keep forwarding a copy of >>> everything to the archive. that way we're tied only to listserv. until we >>> write our own listware, we're always going to be tied to somebody's >>> product. so sticking with the ones that brought us this far would seem the >>> best option. i don't see any reason to spend anything to convert our >>> listserv (brand name) archive into google or yahoo or any other list >>> platform, and just depend on a different company/platform. but this way, we >>> only depend on l-soft for the archiving. the conversations can happen >>> anywhere, starting and stopping in whatever ways they will. >>> >>> thanks to everyone else who's said so far that they'd like to help with >>> the funding end. >>> >>> m >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Herman >>> Michael Herman Associates >>> >>> http://MichaelHerman.com >>> http://RonanParkTrail.com >>> http://ManorNeighbors.com >>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org >>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >>> >>> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Thomas Herrmann < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree with all the thanks Michael – Txs for the work you’ve done >>>> already! >>>> >>>> Sound like a great proposal to me, even if I cannot make a technical >>>> evaluation I trust you and others on the list to have that competence. >>>> >>>> I think the Swedish OSI might have some kronor to put into this >>>> transition/maintenance. Let me know and I’ll put a proposal forward to our >>>> board. >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> *Från:* OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] *För *Michael >>>> Herman >>>> *Skickat:* den 19 augusti 2010 19:38 >>>> *Till:* [email protected] >>>> *Ämne:* the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal >>>> >>>> hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the future >>>> of the oslist. >>>> >>>> the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the >>>> next year. i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with the >>>> makers of the software that drives our list and archives. i've developed a >>>> bit of a work-around plan (working around paying the software company or >>>> anyone else large sums of money annually to run the future of the list). >>>> the softward company has confirmed for me that this (rather non-standard >>>> use >>>> of their software) is indeed technically feasible. another nice thing >>>> about >>>> it is that it makes the oslist structure look even more like what we do in >>>> open space meetings. >>>> >>>> the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are >>>> cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to >>>> googlegroups. on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do something >>>> to move it. >>>> >>>> IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can >>>> (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry way, >>>> subject again to the whims of their IT department. >>>> >>>> IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv >>>> (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our >>>> conversation. >>>> >>>> ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft >>>> directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for ourselves >>>> going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the archive going >>>> forward any postings from any other email list, like germany, europe, >>>> australia, uk, etc. what's more, this turns out to be the cheapest option, >>>> because we only need to pay for listserv software for the archiving >>>> function, rather than for a full-blown list that will deliver to 700 people >>>> at a cost of almost $2 for EVERY message sent to the list (this assumes we >>>> would pay for the service rather than license and run this for ourselves. >>>> harrison is fond of saying that we have done all this without a marketing >>>> department. why add an IT department now?) this is my suggestion. >>>> >>>> and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now: >>>> >>>> 1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes, >>>> googlegroups. people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer the >>>> functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are no >>>> issues >>>> with privacy and control of content. but we will also archive in two other >>>> places, a gmail account AND a listserv system that will keep adding all new >>>> posts to the old listserv archive.) >>>> >>>> 2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000 >>>> messages) to a new list that will have only one member account. >>>> >>>> 3. make that one member account ([email protected], for instance) a >>>> member of the new [email protected] AND any other lists around >>>> the world. THEN set that member account to forward everything it receives >>>> to the migrated archive. so other lists become like breakouts and the >>>> oslist archive a global community record wall of what's happening. >>>> >>>> it this way, we achieve: >>>> >>>> 1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells >>>> and whistles there >>>> 2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable >>>> perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software) >>>> 3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the central >>>> archive >>>> >>>> what does it cost? >>>> >>>> 1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist >>>> account costs nothing. >>>> 2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any >>>> list, costs nothing >>>> 3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list >>>> function costs $500 >>>> 4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year >>>> >>>> i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be >>>> handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the osi-usa. i >>>> assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing bank account take >>>> responsibility for it, rather than an individual or loose group of >>>> colleagues. but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another group to say they'll >>>> take this on. >>>> >>>> i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of the >>>> following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or $4000 >>>> annually >>>> (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance on volunteer >>>> community members to be our global IT department, additional cost of paying >>>> community members to admin the system, reliance on the goodwill of some >>>> other organization (which might be generous initially but could pull the >>>> plug with less warning than we've been given now), no ability to archive >>>> many lists in our one online record. >>>> >>>> i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our >>>> migration. i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new >>>> location/list is pretty simple stuff. >>>> >>>> i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it. i'd like at least four >>>> others to sign on as stewards of the shift. more would be fine. and i >>>> hope >>>> osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding matters. >>>> >>>> i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers. i'm >>>> just one guy, one list member. this is just my personal recommendation and >>>> proposal. BUT... if there are concerns about any of this, i'm glad to try >>>> to keep up with clarifying questions. >>>> >>>> if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so. if you have >>>> something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money, etc) please >>>> say so. if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT if you think we >>>> shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring your own suggestions >>>> and >>>> proposals for what we should do instead, making sure that the solution as >>>> modified (or replaced) is still complete (technically, financially, etc.). >>>> >>>> since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or >>>> really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve the >>>> archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation. >>>> >>>> ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end >>>> of the year, mid- to late-december. that's when i would be most able to >>>> support these things. anyone else could do it sooner or later, but i do >>>> think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive AND >>>> continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this now. >>>> >>>> what can you contribute to this (new) beginning? >>>> >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Michael Herman >>>> Michael Herman Associates >>>> >>>> http://MichaelHerman.com >>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com >>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com >>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org >>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >>>> >>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >>>> >>>> >>>> * * ========================================================== >>>> [email protected] ------------------------------ To >>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of >>>> [email protected]: >>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about >>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: >>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist >>>> * * ========================================================== >>>> [email protected] ------------------------------ To >>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of >>>> [email protected]: >>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about >>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: >>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist >>>> >>> >>> * * ========================================================== >>> [email protected] ------------------------------ To >>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of >>> [email protected]: >>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about >>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: >>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Harold Shinsato >>> [email protected] >>> http://shinsato.com >>> twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush> >>> >> >> > * * ========================================================== > [email protected] ------------------------------ To > subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > [email protected]: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about > OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > > * * ========================================================== > [email protected] ------------------------------ To > subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > [email protected]: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about > OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected]: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
