I agree with your sequence as long as nobody pollutes the environment in the meantime and that there is still fish to fish.... Joanne Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:18:47 +0900 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends
Abundance seems to be a sociospiritual issue of ourkind. It seems that it can be found only within and inbetween. - spark 2012. 2. 26. 오전 4:43에 "Harrison Owen" <[email protected]>님이 작성: Bernd – No problem. Totally understand where you are coming from. At the end of the day if you empower someone, by whatever means or degree – you have, at least to some real extent, dis-empowered them. Or at the very least, further encumbered their situation. All that said there are indeed times when the ONLY thing you can do in the moment is hand out a fish. Starving people, still less dead ones – don’t learn very well… to fish or anything else. However, if your actions end with fish distribution, or almost as destructive, you do teach them to fish, but then hover over their shoulders to make sure they do it RIGHT, well that is a different kettle of fish (sorry about that J). Maybe there is a sequence here – Fish Distributors, Fishing Teachers, and then “Gone fish ‘in” – looking for other fish to fry. Or something. Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Dr.Potomac, MD 20854 USA 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer)Camden, Maine 20854 Phone 301-365-2093 (summer) 207-763-3261 www.openspaceworld.com www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bernhard Weber Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:24 AM To: World wide Open Space Technology email list Subject: Re: [OSList] Teach Them to Fish / A Note to My Friends Harrison, I have been living so long under conditions where the giver/beggar word pairing is not only a metaphor (Beira is the capital of Sofala province in Mozambique), so I had to deal with the problem also at a very practical level and on base of that I want to say: I fully agree and would like to complete something that I wrote in my last posting in answering what Artur has written. Yes the giver-beggar relation creates conditions for helplessness and continued dependence and subservience. And yes, the dynamics is independent from altruistic intentions. And I would complete, if you have a feeling for yourself and/or a spiritual perspective this means, such kind of giving is also bad for the giver, his/her mental costume and/or karma. But when I wrote in my last posting: sometimes you should also give the fish (meaning that nobody who is starved can learn) isn't that a contradiction? Yes it is, buta) contradictions as such are not necessarily bad. At least they are good for triggering thinking processes if not for more (like being a basic ingredient for self-organization, this also refers to the dissence-thread of this groups) b) it all depends on the real process. If temporary dependence is a price for helping out from helplessness so that further steps can follow, like learning, like disappearing of the giver, teacher, blurring/integrating of roles to teacherlearners and learnerteachers, I would say it is an acceptable price Bernd On Feb 24, 2012, at 3:01 AM, Harrison Owen wrote: The secondary point may be less than obvious. When you are simply handed a fish the conditions for learned helplessness and continued dependence, to say nothing of subservience are created. Even with the best, most altruistic intentions in the world, a fish handout has its problems. _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org _______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
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