Colin wrote: "It is also interesting to apply the principles and the laws to the Iraq situation as you did Steve. If whoever turns up is the right people then the Americans, Saddam, the Taliban, Al Qaeda are all the right people. This makes me feel sorry for the Iraqis who can only apply the law of 2 feet by leaving their own country. Yet that is the reality. And whatever happens is the only thing that could have happened."
Interesting -- and it is probably useful to note that the 4 principles are descriptive and not prescriptive, and always have been. In other words they are not directions for what we should be doing, but rather acknowledgements of what is happening anyhow. At least that is the way they emerged in my awareness. Something about practical "is's" as opposed to moral "oughts." If we make the same application to the recent Tsunami . . . ??? Talk about a big space opener! And for sure a 14 billion year perspective helps out. After all, without that Tsunami and its predecessors, there would be few beaches to sit on waiting for the next Tsunami. And of course without the beaches, sea turtles would have no place to lay their eggs, and our sunbathing areas would be radically diminished. At least that is how it might look from the perspective of 14 billion years. Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20845 Phone 301-365-2093 Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm [email protected] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Colin Morley Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 3:41 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Open Space & Anti-Americanism Dear all This discussion has been very helpful for me. I have been part of a group that has struggled with this question - a group that tried to influence the US election from the UK and that had a strong backlash from Americans who did not want foreign interference. Harrison I found your summary that we need to understand the 2 ends of the spectrum between opening space and being activists and keep a 14 billion year perspective very insightful. It is also interesting to apply the principles and the laws to the Iraq situation as you did Steve. If whoever turns up is the right people then the Americans, Saddam, the Taliban, Al Qaeda are all the right people. This makes me feel sorry for the Iraqis who can only apply the law of 2 feet by leaving their own country. Yet that is the reality. And whatever happens is the only thing that could have happened. Ultimately my aim is to bring joy into my life and others. Thinking about what joy is - my conclusion is that it is 'connecting and being connected' both in myself and with others. At a deep level this conflict is connecting up a lot of different things. Energy is moving. And there is joy in being both an opener of space and a passionate and responsible activist. Colin Morley -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Gawron Sent: 07 February 2005 23:22 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Open Space & Anti-Americanism Hello David and all, As an American, I find it counter-productive to compare giving birth to democracy and removing a tyrant who killed millions of his country's citizens to anything but furthering the cause of peace. Only an ostrich sticks his head in the sand and expects danger to go away. It is NOT "my country right or wrong", it is "Doing the right thing before something horrible goes wrong." As an American, I would have rather we did not get involved in Iraq, but on the same hand I am glad we lent a hand to citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan to allow them to form their own destiny. As the open space adage goes, whoever shows up is the right persons to be there. As an American, I am glad we responded to a call for peace in that region. If disagreeing with this is considered anti-American, then you are entitled to your opinion. But I still feel, Saddam and his henchmen were and are a destabilizing influence on Peace in that region and the rest of the world. You can't have it both ways. I will go back to lurking now, Steve Gawron ----- Original Message ----- From: "David William McKay" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 6:56 AM Subject: Open Space & Anti-Americanism > Sorry I'm on digest so can't refer to a specific posting. > > Someone linked to an article and said something like: Anti-americanism > is dead. Or some such. I agree there's nothing to be gained from > anti-americanism. Speaking from the pacifist side of the open-space I'm > glad we finally are seeing nudges towards democracy in Iraq. But I also > find it hard to see how anyone in favour of collaborative organizational > change -- which is what I take open-space to be -- could feel all that > comfy with a war justified by lies and false intelligence. > > War is always about changing the government of another nation-state by > killing its citizens. That's about as far from collaborative change as > you can get. It may at times be necessary. But when it is -- surely the > ideal in a democratic state is to have a meaningful conversation about > what counts as necessary so the management team (aka the Executive > Branch) can have a mandate based upon informed consent. > > If I was an American -- I'm a Canuck -- I would be worried about the > situation. Perhaps I have it bass-ackwards. But in wartime survival > dictates "my country right or wrong" but in peacetime democracy dictates > that the citizenry place democracy itself as the priority. > > David McKay > > * > * > ========================================================== > [email protected] > ------------------------------ > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of [email protected]: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected]: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected]: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected]: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
