WAIT! you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject line...
all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting point..." I am like WHAT POINT??? I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this thread - my e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail threads (conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them together and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail after the next. Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this list. Thanks, -Kaliya On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler <c.pfaeh...@bluewin.ch>wrote: > Dear Reinhard > > You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the > sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by > me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on > different > things than what I would have expected. > > Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important side > result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a stronger > commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed in > allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the > results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation questions > and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?" > and > "What has been developing since the OS event?". > > Other opinions?? > > Heartfully, C. > > Catherine Pfaehler Senn > lic.oec.HSG > Open Space Begleitung > St. Alban-Vorstadt 15 > CH - 4052 Basel > +41-(0)76 - 488 15 46 > c.pfaeh...@open-space-begleitung.ch > www.open-space-begleitung.ch > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:m...@visuelle-protokolle.de] > Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12 > Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? > > my two cents: > > a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law. > Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same > constellation > of facts. (wikipedia). > > In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at all. > But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and the > whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows > since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies > behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras > instead of the essence. > > Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As I > see it, we have to dig deeper: > > I could think of principles like: > > People are basically interested - to engage themselves > - to take responsibility > - to interlink themselves > > That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules. > > And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so called > self organisation. > > Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an > excellent condition for self organisation. > > And your 'foundations' define it well. > > Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the > facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes. > This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate. > > In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and choosen > form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the purpose > of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of his > people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage people > in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own > working conditions. > > I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators towards > the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client. > > That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal > forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course > propagate a visual form of protocol. > > The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the > clients, and that is a pity. > > > > > > mit freundlichen Grüßen > best regards > > Reinhard Kuchenmüller > > VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE > > tel. +39-0566 88929 > www.visuelle-protokolle.de > ________________________________________ > Von: OSLIST [osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] im Auftrag von Artur Silva > [arturfsi...@yahoo.com] > Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25 > An: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? > > Larry: > > I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you. > > We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space. > > But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due to > the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4 > principles". And I think that that there are other principles (foundations) > as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles. > > Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" was > badly chosen. > > Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all. > And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning of > every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not always") > and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state them > or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing > to > do/state". > > But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the > sense that if they are not present different things will happen. > > In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the > following: > > 3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST begins > with: > > * A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough to > let people dream about and > * A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost > always voluntary) > * Enough DIVERSITY in the group > 4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by > all practitioners: > > * The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual circle" > will do) > * The Bulletin Board > * The Market Place > * The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important > feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many > conflicts "evaporate") > * The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-) > > (http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST) > > If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. But > all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are essential. > If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an OST > meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and everything > will happen as usual. > > Best regrsds to all > > Artur > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <la...@spiritedorg.com> wrote: > > From: Larry Peterson <la...@spiritedorg.com> > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? > To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM > > Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the > “principles”. I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some > assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles and > to act on that basis during the event. I think these only become “assumed” > after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most folks in > organizations being there. I think it is important to articulate them, to > influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST event > along > with the most important part – the focus question or theme. Yep, it may be > a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the > possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will > happen anyway. Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the “selves” in > the self-organization. > > Larry > > > Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation > Toronto, Ontario, Canada > la...@spiritedorg.com< > http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi > ritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com>> > 416.653.4829 > http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/> > > > > From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Artur > Silva > Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM > To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? > > Harrison, Larry and all: > > I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from > time to time... > > Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an > original > comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask > you > to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in bold. > > (...) Thanks for having done that ;-) > > Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law are > neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when > The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of “One > more thing not to do.” > > But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some > form > of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization. > > So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I > have > tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST. > > I mean, > > 1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always > happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember you > that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles - > and all went well as usual), but > > 2) Some form of boundary or container is needed > > where this boundary or container does comes from? > > I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST and > proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to read > (again) your opinions about. > > You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here > http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST > > and here > > > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&; > X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com<http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&%0AX=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com> > . > > Looking forward to hear from you all > > Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon > > Artur > > ------ > > > > --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hho...@verizon.net> wrote: > > From: Harrison Owen <hho...@verizon.net> > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST > To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM > Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my > small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive as > opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as opposed to > prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what to > do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter > what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t change a > thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can > be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.” > > Harrison > > > Harrison Owen > > 7808 River Falls Drive > > Potomac, Maryland 20854 > > Phone 301-365-2093 > > Skype hhowen > > Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/> > > Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/ > > > > Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/> > > OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives > Visit: > www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html< > http://listserv.boisestate. > edu/archives/oslist.html> > > -----Original Message----- > From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Larry > Peterson > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM > To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST > > For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non-sense. > Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of “boundaries” or > “container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells. He believes > (with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done > within some “boundaries” or it dissipates. Cells, he asserts, co-create > their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing > relationships in every moment. The boundaries are permeable, constructs, > open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed > system!) > > Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed > permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization – including > the > focus/theme, principles and law. These set a temporary set of “boundaries” > or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived conditions > for self-organization at an event or meeting. Self-organization is > happening all the time, in every moment. Our mental maps (in practice) and > feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we propose and > who we connect to. Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space) – > no, it is happening all the time as order emerges. Do they (or other > similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) help > people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways? I think so. > > Larry > > > Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation > Toronto, Ontario, Canada > la...@spiritedorg.com< > http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi > ritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com>> > 416.653.4829 > http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/> > > > > From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Harrison > Owen > Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM > To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST > > Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law > are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my > (and > others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a word > they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it is all a > joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space Technology. The > joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because somehow or > another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows > that > what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it does – and > that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most of what we > think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management > itself. Double trouble!! > > Harrison > > > Harrison Owen > > 7808 River Falls Drive > > Potomac, Maryland 20854 > > Phone 301-365-2093 > > Skype hhowen > > Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/> > > Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/ > > > > Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/> > > OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives > Visit: > www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html< > http://listserv.boisestate. > edu/archives/oslist.html> > > .org/oslist > > > * * ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To > subscribe, > unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about > OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > * * ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To > subscribe, > unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about > OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > > * * ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To > subscribe, > unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about > OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > * > * > ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > ----------------------------- > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > * > * > ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > ------------------------------ > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
