Dear Kaliya, it IS a new topic.
Reinhard said that often, our discussions here are with the back to our clients, defending our method, not giving enough emphasis on sustainable results. He promotes visual documentation. And there must be other ways of fostering sustainable outcomes better. I was wondering how you guys do that. Heartfully, C. Catherine Pfaehler Senn lic.oec.HSG Open Space Begleitung St. Alban-Vorstadt 15 CH - 4052 Basel +41-(0)76 - 488 15 46 c.pfaeh...@open-space-begleitung.ch www.open-space-begleitung.ch <http://www.open-space-begleitung.ch/> _____ Von: Kaliya * [mailto:identitywo...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Montag, 29. Juni 2009 02:41 An: c.pfaeh...@bluewin.ch Cc: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Betreff: Re: How can we foster sustainable outcomes? WAIT! you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject line... all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting point..." I am like WHAT POINT??? I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this thread - my e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail threads (conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them together and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail after the next. Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this list. Thanks, -Kaliya On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler <c.pfaeh...@bluewin.ch> wrote: Dear Reinhard You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on different things than what I would have expected. Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important side result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a stronger commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed in allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation questions and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?" and "What has been developing since the OS event?". Other opinions?? Heartfully, C. Catherine Pfaehler Senn lic.oec.HSG Open Space Begleitung St. Alban-Vorstadt 15 CH - 4052 Basel +41-(0)76 - 488 15 46 c.pfaeh...@open-space-begleitung.ch www.open-space-begleitung.ch -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:m...@visuelle-protokolle.de] Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12 Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? my two cents: a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law. Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same constellation of facts. (wikipedia). In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at all. But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and the whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras instead of the essence. Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As I see it, we have to dig deeper: I could think of principles like: People are basically interested - to engage themselves - to take responsibility - to interlink themselves That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules. And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so called self organisation. Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an excellent condition for self organisation. And your 'foundations' define it well. Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes. This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate. In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and choosen form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the purpose of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of his people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage people in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own working conditions. I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators towards the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client. That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course propagate a visual form of protocol. The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the clients, and that is a pity. mit freundlichen Grüßen best regards Reinhard Kuchenmüller VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE tel. +39-0566 88929 www.visuelle-protokolle.de ________________________________________ Von: OSLIST [osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] im Auftrag von Artur Silva [arturfsi...@yahoo.com] Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25 An: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? Larry: I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you. We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space. But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due to the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4 principles". And I think that that there are other principles (foundations) as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles. Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" was badly chosen. Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all. And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning of every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not always") and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state them or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing to do/state". But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the sense that if they are not present different things will happen. In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the following: 3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old Users Guide, that OST begins with: * A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough to let people dream about and * A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost always voluntary) * Enough DIVERSITY in the group 4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by all practitioners: * The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual circle" will do) * The Bulletin Board * The Market Place * The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many conflicts "evaporate") * The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-) (http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST) If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. But all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are essential. If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an OST meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and everything will happen as usual. Best regrsds to all Artur --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <la...@spiritedorg.com> wrote: From: Larry Peterson <la...@spiritedorg.com> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM Maybe a foundation is another word for how I often describe the principles. I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles and to act on that basis during the event. I think these only become assumed after some evolution of consciousness and I dont experience most folks in organizations being there. I think it is important to articulate them, to influence the social construction of the boundaries of the OST event along with the most important part the focus question or theme. Yep, it may be a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will happen anyway. Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the selves in the self-organization. Larry Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation Toronto, Ontario, Canada la...@spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi <http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com> ritedorg.com> 416.653.4829 http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/> From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Artur Silva Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST? Harrison, Larry and all: I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from time to time... Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an original comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask you to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in bold. (...) Thanks for having done that ;-) Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law are neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of One more thing not to do. But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some form of boundaries or container for self-organization. So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I have tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST. I mean, 1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember you that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles - and all went well as usual), but 2) Some form of boundary or container is needed where this boundary or container does comes from? I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST and proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to read (again) your opinions about. You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST and here http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401 <http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3 &%0AX=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com> &L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3& X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com. Looking forward to hear from you all Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon Artur ------ --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hho...@verizon.net> wrote: From: Harrison Owen <hho...@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM Right on Larry and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my small piece. I said, They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive as opposed to descriptive. I meant to say,They are descriptive as opposed to prescriptive. Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what to do they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesnt change a thing. In short there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of One more thing not to do. Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20854 Phone 301-365-2093 Skype hhowen Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/> Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/> Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/> OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate. edu/archives/oslist.html> -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Peterson Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST For me, there is more sense in the Principles and Law than non-sense. Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of boundaries or container for self-organization, particularly that of cells. He believes (with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done within some boundaries or it dissipates. Cells, he asserts, co-create their boundaries with their environment through self-organizing relationships in every moment. The boundaries are permeable, constructs, open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed system!) Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed permeable boundaries for enhancing human self-organization including the focus/theme, principles and law. These set a temporary set of boundaries or a container both focused and open that change the perceived conditions for self-organization at an event or meeting. Self-organization is happening all the time, in every moment. Our mental maps (in practice) and feelings shape what we do as we self-organize what topics we propose and who we connect to. Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space) no, it is happening all the time as order emerges. Do they (or other similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) help people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways? I think so. Larry Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation Toronto, Ontario, Canada la...@spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi <http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com> ritedorg.com> 416.653.4829 http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/> From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Harrison Owen Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my (and others) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a word they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive You could say it is all a joke. Rather like technology in the phrase Open Space Technology. The joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny because somehow or another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows that what happens in Open Space simply cant happen. Unfortunately it does and that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff like most of what we think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management itself. Double trouble!! Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20854 Phone 301-365-2093 Skype hhowen Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/> Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/> Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/> OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate. edu/archives/oslist.html> .org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ----------------------------- To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
