I would have done the same thing with one exception.  
I have always found a way to discuss faith issues.  I find that lack of
hope is related to lack of faith which is a great place to begin.  When
I say "faith" I do mean faith in God.  It is an amazing thing to realize
that the God of the universe who created all things created me/us with a
purpose.  In this one simple fact is meaning and hope and it is in Him
that our faith should be placed.  
When we as therapists realize this it is a great gift we give to our
patients to discuss these things and in fact build into the occupational
framework of living.  The more we look into ourselves for answers the
emptier life is.  When we turn our eyes/faith to Him and start everyday
with that practice the world (no matter what our circumstances) is a
better place.



Neal C. Luther,OTR/L
Rehab Program Coordinator
Advanced Home Care
1-336-878-8824 xt 3205
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Home Care is our Business...Caring is our Specialty



The information contained in this electronic document from Advanced Home Care 
is privileged and confidential information intended for the sole use of [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]  If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, 
or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended 
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received 
this communication in error, please immediately notify the person listed above 
and discard the original.-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mary Alice Cafiero
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [OTlist] Client without goals

I recently had this discussion with a good friend here who does home  
health. She had a patient that was very similar as far as not being  
able to identify goals. Her pt had a very flat affect and didn't do  
anything other than move from her bed to her couch during the day and  
occasionally get up to go to the kitchen for some snack food or  
similar that she just had to grab and eat.

The referral actually got to home health because the lady had a  
shoulder arthroplasty done. However, when my friend did the  
evaluation, this lady was able to do all of her basic ADLs and even  
some IADLS in her home. PT was also on the case and was addressing the  
specifics of range and exercise for the shoulder. The first thought  
was that there were not really OT goals. My friend wasn't totally  
comfortable with this, and I'm sure that was, at least in part,  
because my friend does have some background working in mental health.

She talked with the pt who agreed to have her come back to "check" on  
her. On the next visit, they talked about depression and how having a  
schedule of doing things during the day can help alleviate symptoms.  
They made a very simple plan/schedule for the pt to begin following  
each day with just 3-5 activities scheduled throughout the day. Simple  
things like getting dressed instead of staying in pajamas, brushing  
her hair and teeth, making a sandwich or microwave meal for lunch,  
stepping out into the front or backyard once or twice a day, etc.

On just 1-2 follow-up visits, the pt was actually doing the things  
they scheduled and said she was feeling better and even smiled. The  
smile was huge because during the evaluation, the pt had an absolutely  
flat affect and showed no emotion the whole time. She was able to  
verbalize that she could understand why getting up for activities  
during the day made a difference in how she feels.

Now, of course, we don't know if she will continue to do those things  
when no one is "checking", but I think the OT intervention was valid  
and meaningful even though the pt could not initially verbalize goals.  
Certainly, a recommendation was given to the HH agency and physician  
that a pscyh referral would be a good idea. My friend did a lot of  
education regarding depression and basic things that the pt can do  
around her home to combat the depression.

What do y'all think? Was this appropriate US medical model home health  
OT intervention?
Sorry for being long-winded,
Mary Alice

Mary Alice Cafiero, MSOT/L, ATP
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
972-757-3733
Fax 888-708-8683

This message, including any attachments, may include confidential,  
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On Oct 31, 2008, at 12:59 AM, FAY, Felicity wrote:

>
> Hi there, I'm a Mental Health OT from Australia and work with clients
> who find it difficult to engage and identify their goals daily.
> Sometimes just engaging with the person and building rapport for a
> couple of sessions is enough for them to feel safe to work with you on
> re-engaging and devising personal goals that require some level of
> functional ability: thereby making physical therapy more meaningful  
> (?).
>
>
> Occupational dysfunction often occurs previous ability, stability)
> across many domains due to depression, poor motivation, grief (loss of
> pet) and other mental health issues, in addition to aging and loss of
> general function.  A good general screen is the DASS (Depression,
> Anxiety and Stress Scale) to inform treatment, or maybe a cognitive
> screen to ascertain whether she is able to formulate appropriate goals
> due to low mood and requires more support to identify them?  Perhaps
> there are some personality vulnerabilities present that compound her
> current presentation of "rejecting" (or testing) you, then wanting  
> more
> input.
>
> If her goal of being "normal" is strongly held then assistance to  
> manage
> depression symptoms and education re same may assist her to return  
> to a
> state that is more comfortable for her?  I'm not sure how your system
> works or whether there is provision for OT's to work in this way?
>
> Felicity Fay
> Mental Health Occupational Therapist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, 31 October 2008 11:31 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: OTlist Digest, Vol 43, Issue 44
>
> Send OTlist mailing list submissions to
>       [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> than "Re: Contents of OTlist digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals (McLaughlin, Jennifer)
>   2. Re: Best Practice (Ron Carson)
>   3. Re: D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals (Ron Carson)
>   4. Re: D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals (Joan Riches)
>   5. Re: D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals (Ron Carson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:39:15 -0400
> From: "McLaughlin, Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
> To: <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
>       <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii"
>
> Possibly a referral for depression screening or treatment.  Sounds
> fairly typical with lack of engagement and participation in daily
> occupations.  If she is unable to identify goals she may need medical
> assistance to get to a place to be able to identify goals.
> Just my humble thoughts.
> Jennifer McLaughlin, OT/L
> Geriatric Rehab specialist
> The information contained in this message may be privileged and/or
> confidential and protected from disclosure.
> If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an
> employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the
> intended recipient,
> you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or  
> copying
> of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
> immediately by replying to this message and deleting the material from
> any computer.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:05:12 -0400
> From: Ron Carson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OTlist] Best Practice
> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Chris, I'm going to reply, but I need to take a break ...
>
> Ron
> --
> Ron Carson MHS, OT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008
> To:   [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Subj: [OTlist] Best Practice
>
> Ron>> And,  I  do not think? a? therapist? can? mentally? switch?  
> from?
> Ron>> component?  level?  to  occupation?  level?  treatment. Maybe  
> I'm
> Ron>> wrong, but I think it's one or the other.
>
> cac> But  in  your  case  study  you  are switching back and forth  
> from
> the
> cac> component  level  to  eventually  the  occupational  level.?
> Standing
> cac> tolerance=component   level   (cardiovasular,  quad  strength,
> static
> cac> standing  balance).?  Ambulation=componet  level (cardiovascular,
> quad
> cac> strength   both   concentric   and   eccentric  contractions,
> dynamic
> cac> balance).?  All  of  this  was  leading  to  the individual's
> personal
> cac> occupational goal.
>
> cac> In  my  case  study  I was switching back and forth from the
> component
> cac> level  to  eventually  the  occupational  level.?  Estim  to the
> digit
> cac> extensors=component  level  (facilitation  of  the  neural   
> pathway
> to
> cac> enhance neuroplasticity which in turn leads to digit extensor
> strength
> cac> and  control).?  All  of  this  leading?  to the individual's
> personal
> cac> occupational goal.
>
> cac> Chris Nahrwold MS, OTR
>
>
>
>
>
>
> cac> --
> cac> Options?
> cac> www.otnow.com/mailman/options/otlist_otnow.com
>
> cac> Archive?
> cac> www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:10:08 -0400
> From: Ron Carson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
> To: Joan Riches <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Thanks  Joan and Jennifer:
>
> Because the patient is on HH, she is already
> receiving  a  plethora of services; everything from social worker, RN,
> aide to PT.
>
> You  know  the  question  of  "why"  was never answered, either by the
> patient,  her family or myself. When I earlier mentioned mind mapping,
> it was because of this patient.
>
> I  think  something  psychiatrically happened to her but she refuse my
> suggestion for a psych eval.
>
> One of the things that was even odder and leads me to think that maybe
> "I"  was  the problem is that the patient was doing well in PT and she
> took  a  bathe  with  the  assistance  of the aide. But, I swear, this
> patient  would  NOT  verbalize  wanting to do anything on her own. The
> only thing she said, especially in the beginning is that she wanted to
> be "normal".
>
> Ron
> --
> Ron Carson MHS, OT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan Riches <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008
> To:   [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Subj: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
>
> JR> Ron
> JR> In a case like this I think that an OT eval may be the most
> effective
> JR> part of our offering. I am left with the question, "What referrals
> have
> JR> you offered to this family?" You have gathered valuable  
> information.
> JR> This is certainly an extreme case of occupational dysfunction  
> due to
> JR> ......what??
> JR> If you have read English novels you may have run across similar
> JR> descriptions of 'invalid' (emphasis on the first syllable) upper
> class
> JR> women. It is an interesting brain twig to then put the emphasis on
> the
> JR> second syllable. Thanks for all the brain twigs now and in the
> future.
>
> JR> Joan Riches B.Sc.O.T., OT(C)
> JR> Specialist in Cognitive Disability
> JR> Riches Consulting
> JR> High River, Alberta, Canada
> JR> 403 652 7928
>
>
> JR> -----Original Message-----
> JR> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On
> JR> Behalf Of Ron Carson
> JR> Sent: October 30, 2008 7:08 AM
> JR> To: [email protected]
> JR> Subject: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
>
>
> JR> Yesterday,  I  d/c'd  a patient because she is unable to verbalize
> ANY
> JR> OT-related goals. It was a very strange and difficult case and I'm
> not
> JR> 100%  comfortable  with  the d/c, but it seemed to be the best
> choice.
> JR> I'm VERY interested to hear others' opinions.
>
> JR> I  evaluated  a patient last week. Without going into a lot of
> detail,
> JR> the patient has mild arthritis, recently fell and had kyphoplasty.
> She
> JR> had  been  very  active  until  about  5 years ago when she
> "suddenly"
> JR> became  very  sedentary. There assorted history and eval findings,
> but
> JR> this   is  basically  a  women  who  has  disengaged  from  life.
> She
> JR> essentially lives on her couch and that's about it.
>
> JR> When  I evaled her last week, she was unable to identify ANY OT
> goals.
> JR> Against, my better judgement, I "made up" a couple goals and
> scheduled
> JR> her for only two visits.
>
> JR> At  the  end  of  my  second visit, I indicated that I was d/c'ing
> the
> JR> patient  for lack of goals. The patient was OK with it but the
> husband
> JR> talked  and  asked  me  to stay on. After a long conversation with
> the
> JR> patient, one in which I was apparently "mean", the patient agreed
> that
> JR> she wanted me to come back. So, I signed her up for 5x/week  
> therapy.
>
> JR> On  the  next  visit,  I  was  told that the patient "did not like
> me"
> JR> because I was mean. I promptly apologized to her, expressed my
> concern
> JR> and  methods  and asked for forgiveness, which she readily gave.
> After
> JR> that,  I again started talking about the patient's life and goals.
> Her
> JR> son  had  mentioned  that  the family had a pet that died and that
> was
> JR> sort  of  "the  beginning  of  the  end"  for the patient. The son
> had
> JR> mentioned  possible  pet  ownership  which  I  followed up on, but
> the
> JR> patient denied wanting it.
>
> JR> I  came  back  two  more times, with each visit focused on
> identifying
> JR> goals. We did a mini life review but no matter what avenue I took,
> the
> JR> patient  denied  any  goals.  So,  I  reluctantly told her that in
> the
> JR> absence  of  goals,  d/c was the only option. She agreed and said
> she
> JR> was sad because she was "starting to like me".
>
> JR> She  and  I agreed that my time had not been wasted but that
> continued
> JR> visits would be a waste.
>
> JR> Without  doubt,  this  is  one of the hardest and strangest cases
> I've
> JR> ever  had. I've never met a person who was so unmotivated and yet
> able
> JR> to articulate the same.
>
> JR> I  know all the bases are not covered in this message but it
> hopefully
> JR> provides enough information to peak everyone's interest.
>
> JR> Thanks,
>
> JR> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:04:50 -0600
> From: "Joan Riches" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
> To: <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii"
>
> So work at not feeling so badly, Ron. Have you never heard the saying
> 'when all else fails refer to OT'. Because with all our angst about  
> not
> being appreciated lots of folks know that OT expertise means we do  
> make
> a difference many times when 'the others' were stumped. Sounds like  
> you
> were a sacrificial lamb in this case. The fact that you are suffering
> because you worry about not helping this woman shows what a good OT  
> you
> are.
>
> Special blessings, Joan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ron Carson
> Sent: October 30, 2008 6:10 PM
> To: Joan Riches
> Subject: Re: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
>
>
> Thanks  Joan and Jennifer:
>
> Because the patient is on HH, she is already
> receiving  a  plethora of services; everything from social worker, RN,
> aide to PT.
>
> You  know  the  question  of  "why"  was never answered, either by the
> patient,  her family or myself. When I earlier mentioned mind mapping,
> it was because of this patient.
>
> I  think  something  psychiatrically happened to her but she refuse my
> suggestion for a psych eval.
>
> One of the things that was even odder and leads me to think that maybe
> "I"  was  the problem is that the patient was doing well in PT and she
> took  a  bathe  with  the  assistance  of the aide. But, I swear, this
> patient  would  NOT  verbalize  wanting to do anything on her own. The
> only thing she said, especially in the beginning is that she wanted to
> be "normal".
>
> Ron
> --
> Ron Carson MHS, OT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan Riches <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008
> To:   [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Subj: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
>
> JR> Ron
> JR> In a case like this I think that an OT eval may be the most
> effective
> JR> part of our offering. I am left with the question, "What referrals
> have
> JR> you offered to this family?" You have gathered valuable  
> information.
> JR> This is certainly an extreme case of occupational dysfunction  
> due to
> JR> ......what??
> JR> If you have read English novels you may have run across similar
> JR> descriptions of 'invalid' (emphasis on the first syllable) upper
> class
> JR> women. It is an interesting brain twig to then put the emphasis on
> the
> JR> second syllable. Thanks for all the brain twigs now and in the
> future.
>
> JR> Joan Riches B.Sc.O.T., OT(C)
> JR> Specialist in Cognitive Disability
> JR> Riches Consulting
> JR> High River, Alberta, Canada
> JR> 403 652 7928
>
>
> JR> -----Original Message-----
> JR> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
> On
> JR> Behalf Of Ron Carson
> JR> Sent: October 30, 2008 7:08 AM
> JR> To: [email protected]
> JR> Subject: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
>
>
> JR> Yesterday,  I  d/c'd  a patient because she is unable to verbalize
> ANY
> JR> OT-related goals. It was a very strange and difficult case and I'm
> not
> JR> 100%  comfortable  with  the d/c, but it seemed to be the best
> choice.
> JR> I'm VERY interested to hear others' opinions.
>
> JR> I  evaluated  a patient last week. Without going into a lot of
> detail,
> JR> the patient has mild arthritis, recently fell and had kyphoplasty.
> She
> JR> had  been  very  active  until  about  5 years ago when she
> "suddenly"
> JR> became  very  sedentary. There assorted history and eval findings,
> but
> JR> this   is  basically  a  women  who  has  disengaged  from  life.
> She
> JR> essentially lives on her couch and that's about it.
>
> JR> When  I evaled her last week, she was unable to identify ANY OT
> goals.
> JR> Against, my better judgement, I "made up" a couple goals and
> scheduled
> JR> her for only two visits.
>
> JR> At  the  end  of  my  second visit, I indicated that I was d/c'ing
> the
> JR> patient  for lack of goals. The patient was OK with it but the
> husband
> JR> talked  and  asked  me  to stay on. After a long conversation with
> the
> JR> patient, one in which I was apparently "mean", the patient agreed
> that
> JR> she wanted me to come back. So, I signed her up for 5x/week  
> therapy.
>
> JR> On  the  next  visit,  I  was  told that the patient "did not like
> me"
> JR> because I was mean. I promptly apologized to her, expressed my
> concern
> JR> and  methods  and asked for forgiveness, which she readily gave.
> After
> JR> that,  I again started talking about the patient's life and goals.
> Her
> JR> son  had  mentioned  that  the family had a pet that died and that
> was
> JR> sort  of  "the  beginning  of  the  end"  for the patient. The son
> had
> JR> mentioned  possible  pet  ownership  which  I  followed up on, but
> the
> JR> patient denied wanting it.
>
> JR> I  came  back  two  more times, with each visit focused on
> identifying
> JR> goals. We did a mini life review but no matter what avenue I took,
> the
> JR> patient  denied  any  goals.  So,  I  reluctantly told her that in
> the
> JR> absence  of  goals,  d/c was the only option. She agreed and said
> she
> JR> was sad because she was "starting to like me".
>
> JR> She  and  I agreed that my time had not been wasted but that
> continued
> JR> visits would be a waste.
>
> JR> Without  doubt,  this  is  one of the hardest and strangest cases
> I've
> JR> ever  had. I've never met a person who was so unmotivated and yet
> able
> JR> to articulate the same.
>
> JR> I  know all the bases are not covered in this message but it
> hopefully
> JR> provides enough information to peak everyone's interest.
>
> JR> Thanks,
>
> JR> Ron
>
>
>
> --
> Options?
> www.otnow.com/mailman/options/otlist_otnow.com
>
> Archive?
> www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1755 - Release Date:
> 10/29/2008 5:27 PM
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:31:04 -0400
> From: Ron Carson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
> To: Joan Riches <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Joan  it  so funny you mention sacrificial lamb, because that's  
> exactly
> how  I felt. It seemed that no matter what, I could not "connect" with
> the  patient.  But  in  the  end, we both agreed that OT had been very
> helpful. The whole experience was just strange!
>
> I like your saying! Here's one that I made up:
>
> OT  -  the  Other  Therapy!  Sort  of  goes hand in the hand with your
> statement!
>
> Ron
> --
> Ron Carson MHS, OT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan Riches <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008
> To:   [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Subj: [OTlist] D/C'd Patient For Lack of Goals
>
> JR> So work at not feeling so badly, Ron. Have you never heard the
> saying
> JR> 'when all else fails refer to OT'. Because with all our angst  
> about
> not
> JR> being appreciated lots of folks know that OT expertise means we do
> make
> JR> a difference many times when 'the others' were stumped. Sounds  
> like
> you
> JR> were a sacrificial lamb in this case. The fact that you are
> suffering
> JR> because you worry about not helping this woman shows what a good  
> OT
> you
> JR> are.
>
> JR> Special blessings, Joan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> --
> Unsubscribe?
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>
> End of OTlist Digest, Vol 43, Issue 44
> **************************************
>
>
>
>
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