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Today's Topics:

   1. Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Jim Popovitch)
   2. Re: Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Joseph Jackson)
   3. Re: Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Jim Popovitch)
   4. Re: Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Jay R. Ashworth)
   5. Re: Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Jay R. Ashworth)
   6. Re: Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Jay R. Ashworth)
   7. Re: Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH) (Outages)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 15:30:53 -0400
From: Jim Popovitch <jim...@gmail.com>
To: outages-discussion@outages.org
Subject: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH)
Message-ID:
        <cagfsgr3bvspex1ddrfycjwvqyqs87nh03tswp8c3ct0tico...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> Please remember to include as much information as possible in
> initial queries of this type; lots of people still get this list
> on their phones, and keeping traffic down is a Good Thing.
>

In the same spirit, can some more guidance be issued to reduce the
noise of non-significant outages.   Is a single fiber cut really that
much of an impact in 2016, or is it really just a normal and expected
event that routing was designed to deal with?

-Jim P.


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 19:57:56 +0000
From: Joseph Jackson <jjack...@aninetworks.net>
To: "outages-discussion@outages.org" <outages-discussion@outages.org>
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC -
        PINCH)
Message-ID:
        <1697d9d78d9342cc8adb42958c890...@mbx080-w4-co-1.exch080.serverpod.net>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Outages-discussion [mailto:outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jim Popovitch
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:31 PM
> To: outages-discussion@outages.org
> Subject: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH)

> In the same spirit, can some more guidance be issued to reduce the
> noise of non-significant outages.   Is a single fiber cut really that
> much of an impact in 2016, or is it really just a normal and expected event 
> that routing was designed to deal with?

> -Jim P.



The routing protocols might be able to deal with a single fiber cut by design 
but I've noticed that networks are rarely designed topology and capacity wise 
for a failure of that sort.

Example - Zayo had a fiber cut in between DFW and LA in 2014.  Sure traffic 
routed around it but the capacity of the links wasn't enough to handle the 
extra traffic during the outage which then caused issues across their entire 
network which would cause issues with their customers.  


So while the technology is more than able to go around damage human planners 
and most importantly costs keep it from being as robust and redundant as 
possible.

Joseph





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:02:31 -0400
From: Jim Popovitch <jim...@gmail.com>
To: "outages-discussion@outages.org" <outages-discussion@outages.org>
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC -
        PINCH)
Message-ID:
        <CAGfsgR3M0R8f18wVCW-rEanQjsSnS9FyFLLa=kvy7jyqmga...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Joseph Jackson
<jjack...@aninetworks.net> wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Outages-discussion [mailto:outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Jim Popovitch
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:31 PM
>> To: outages-discussion@outages.org
>> Subject: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH)
>
>> In the same spirit, can some more guidance be issued to reduce the
>> noise of non-significant outages.   Is a single fiber cut really that
>> much of an impact in 2016, or is it really just a normal and expected event 
>> that routing was designed to deal with?
>
>> -Jim P.
>
>
>
> The routing protocols might be able to deal with a single fiber cut by design 
> but I've noticed that networks are rarely designed topology and capacity wise 
> for a failure of that sort.
>
> Example - Zayo had a fiber cut in between DFW and LA in 2014.  Sure traffic 
> routed around it but the capacity of the links wasn't enough to handle the 
> extra traffic during the outage which then caused issues across their entire 
> network which would cause issues with their customers.
>
>
> So while the technology is more than able to go around damage human planners 
> and most importantly costs keep it from being as robust and redundant as 
> possible.
>

I understand that, but those that do plan/provide/purchase
connectivity/services from responsible providers, should their inboxes
be full of people complaining over trivial matters of ignored
experience and best practices?

-Jim P.


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 20:57:20 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@baylink.com>
To: outages-discussion@outages.org
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC -
        PINCH)
Message-ID: <30032873.4197.1474405040396.javamail.zim...@baylink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Jackson" <jjack...@aninetworks.net>
> To: outages-discussion@outages.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:57:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH)

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Outages-discussion [mailto:outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org] On
>> Behalf Of Jim Popovitch
> 
>> In the same spirit, can some more guidance be issued to reduce the
>> noise of non-significant outages.   Is a single fiber cut really that
>> much of an impact in 2016, or is it really just a normal and expected event 
>> that
>> routing was designed to deal with?
> 
> The routing protocols might be able to deal with a single fiber cut by design
> but I've noticed that networks are rarely designed topology and capacity wise
> for a failure of that sort.
> 
> Example - Zayo had a fiber cut in between DFW and LA in 2014.  Sure traffic
> routed around it but the capacity of the links wasn't enough to handle the
> extra traffic during the outage which then caused issues across their entire
> network which would cause issues with their customers.
> 
> 
> So while the technology is more than able to go around damage human planners 
> and
> most importantly costs keep it from being as robust and redundant as possible.

IOW: The Internet treats censorship as damage, but the actual damage it might
not be to handle because that's due to cheap design, not attacks.  :-)

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       j...@baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 20:59:34 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@baylink.com>
To: outages-discussion@outages.org
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC -
        PINCH)
Message-ID:
        <1549193365.4204.1474405174820.javamail.zim...@baylink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Popovitch" <jim...@gmail.com>

> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Joseph Jackson
> <jjack...@aninetworks.net> wrote:
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Outages-discussion [mailto:outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jim Popovitch
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:31 PM
>>> To: outages-discussion@outages.org
>>> Subject: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH)
>>
>>> In the same spirit, can some more guidance be issued to reduce the
>>> noise of non-significant outages.   Is a single fiber cut really that
>>> much of an impact in 2016, or is it really just a normal and expected event 
>>> that
>>> routing was designed to deal with?
>>
>> The routing protocols might be able to deal with a single fiber cut by design
>> but I've noticed that networks are rarely designed topology and capacity wise
>> for a failure of that sort.
> 
> I understand that, but those that do plan/provide/purchase
> connectivity/services from responsible providers, should their inboxes
> be full of people complaining over trivial matters of ignored
> experience and best practices?

Their own stupidity? No.

I have a bit softer heart for uplevel stupidity, though, as it's difficult
to see as a potential customer.

I'll dredge out the recommendations for posters I'd written up a couple 
years ago, and run em up the flagpole again.

Cheers,
-- jra
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       j...@baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2016 00:07:53 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Jay R. Ashworth" <j...@baylink.com>
To: outages-discussion@outages.org
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC -
        PINCH)
Message-ID:
        <1283726710.4568.1474416473485.javamail.zim...@baylink.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Skripka, Daniel" <daniel.skri...@centurylink.com>

> RE: Is a single fiber cut really that much of an impact in 2016,  or is it
> really just a normal and expected event that routing was designed to deal 
> with?
> 
> Most tier 1 and tier 2 internet service providers have diverse fiber paths, 
> so a
> single fiber cut does not cause more than a few seconds of impact.
> 
> There are many tier 3 providers that only have a single path or peer to the
> Internet.
> 
> While many businesses have a plan such as using cellular sms or data service, 
> or
> dial/fax for backup, they may not practice or test it every quarter or year.

This is true.

But "*my* internet connection is down" is generally outside the scope of the
list.  You call your carrier, and they fix it.

On the other hand, upper tier providers *often* have not spent enough money
to protect fully-loaded paths, and when they cut over to protect, unexpected 
stuff blows to hell -- see also "AWS control plane overloads" from years past.

That stuff is worth both an initial report, and some field reports to allow
people to assemble a mental picture of what might be happening.

But we still want to increase the amount of useful information that's in
all such reports, to push the S/N as high as possible.

Cheers,
-- jr '<moderator/>' a
-- 
Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       j...@baylink.com
Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates       http://www.bcp38.info          2000 Land Rover DII
St Petersburg FL USA      BCP38: Ask For It By Name!           +1 727 647 1274


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:50:12 -0700
From: Outages <virendra.r...@outages.org>
To: Jim Popovitch <jim...@gmail.com>
Cc: "outages-discussion@outages.org" <outages-discussion@outages.org>
Subject: Re: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC -
        PINCH)
Message-ID: <971ba8c0-7eda-453f-8c17-63f3ad9e4...@outages.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii


> On Sep 20, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Jim Popovitch <jim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Joseph Jackson
> <jjack...@aninetworks.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Outages-discussion [mailto:outages-discussion-boun...@outages.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Jim Popovitch
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 2:31 PM
>>> To: outages-discussion@outages.org
>>> Subject: [Outages-discussion] Unsignificant outages (was:NYC - PINCH)
>> 
>>> In the same spirit, can some more guidance be issued to reduce the
>>> noise of non-significant outages.   Is a single fiber cut really that
>>> much of an impact in 2016, or is it really just a normal and expected event 
>>> that routing was designed to deal with?
>> 
>>> -Jim P.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The routing protocols might be able to deal with a single fiber cut by 
>> design but I've noticed that networks are rarely designed topology and 
>> capacity wise for a failure of that sort.
>> 
>> Example - Zayo had a fiber cut in between DFW and LA in 2014.  Sure traffic 
>> routed around it but the capacity of the links wasn't enough to handle the 
>> extra traffic during the outage which then caused issues across their entire 
>> network which would cause issues with their customers.
>> 
>> 
>> So while the technology is more than able to go around damage human planners 
>> and most importantly costs keep it from being as robust and redundant as 
>> possible.
> 
> I understand that, but those that do plan/provide/purchase
> connectivity/services from responsible providers, should their inboxes
> be full of people complaining over trivial matters of ignored
> experience and best practices?
> 
> -Jim P.
-----------
Addressing outages (downtime) hasn't changed much. Nothing is new under the 
sun. As a network engineer you know the answer I'm going to give, it depends 
who you ask and what SLA customers agree on. As Joseph alluded to, you get what 
you pay for. Sometimes even that proves us engineers wrong due to bad design.

All I'm saying is keep your customers posted that goes a long way as opposed to 
having them play "hunt the secret glyph".

regards,
/vrode





------------------------------

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