Great. I just sent her a long email detailing everything that I also have placed in four separate bug filings over on the connect site. I'm probably going to record some demonstrations of this as well. Though I told her that the ultimate way to discover things is to test yourself, though I'm not sure how much support and testing Microsoft is willing to devote with third-party screen readers though. But while we're at it, you think there might be a live individual I could talk to about the meriad of accessibility issues with both Windows server 2012 and SQL Server 2012 (most of whose issues have existed since the 2005 versions)? I contacted the accessibility blog about some of these issues, I've tried the forums, and I get looked at like I've got two heads. No one at Microsoft accessibility has taken my inquiry about windows server yet, and with SQl Server, I reported one thing, but the biggest thing about this kind of stuff is that it's easier to demonstrate than it is to explain really. My SQL server querey seemingly went into left field, and as David said before, I guess no one is interested in hearing what they did wrong with a product that's already been released. But I'm sorry, I will not fall for such things.
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg Low (GregLow.com) Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 1:33 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? I've got someone from corp who does want to talk to you about it. I'll hook you up with them. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 19 March 2013 7:39 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? Thank you. I'll get ahold of the Windows devision somehow then. But in terms of side-by-side configuration of both visual studio versions, what will happen to my extensions that are installed as Windows installers such as Python Tools and Roslyn? Will the Vs 2010 installer detect them somehow and ask me if I want to attach them to Visual Studio? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Kean Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 4:00 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? Good points. But just to clarify when I say "we" care about accessibility I'm solely talking about the Developer Division (ie VS & .NET). I can't talk for other divisions such as Windows (which own the modern UI stack) and SQL (which own SQL Server Management Studio). I don't work in their orgs, and have no idea what accessibility requirements they have. Both VS2010 and VS2012 can be installed on the same machine, we explicitly test side-by-side. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 11:26 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? I'll report all of them; though some of the accessibility issues in 2012 have existed since 2010 as well; like the WPF designer and the properties windows for both projects and code files. But in the meantime, what do you recommend I do so that I can move on and be productive with my C# studies? Can I run Vs 2010 on top of VS 2012? Or side-by-side I should say, without degrading the computer's performance? I am thinking of doing that, but the problem is that all of my extensions (Roslyn, Python Tools, and many others are plugged into VS2012 right now, so if I install 2010, I'll get conflicts and brokenness, won't I?) I'm just curious then. While we're on the same subject, if you care about accessibility, then why don't you provide more specific accessibility reports about modern-interface applications? Just saying accessible or not means nothing to us. I've not been able to buy a single thing from the store since most modern-interface apps aren't accessible. And also, the ratings don't provide much because things that you say are not accessible via the rating system sometimes are indeed accessible with at least some screen readers. We blind people want more; we want to know before we buy something exactly what parts of the interface work with screen readers. And if you want standards to be followed, why not disallow all apps that do not provide all UIA elements (without them, screen readers cannot communicate with an application at all), and test them with all four screen readers; JAWS, system Access, Window-Eyes and NVDA? Just a thought and something to ponder; I'm in no way trying to criticize Microsoft; I like you guys too much for that. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Kean Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 2:08 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? We have accessibility requirements for each feature within VS, and multiple times throughout a release we run through them to make sure that our product is accessible. However, things slip through the cracks. File (separate) bugs for each thing that is not accessible (we treat non-accessible things as broken). There's not a single team inside VS that owns each dialog, but each will get routed to the right team. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:57 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? But it "works" it's just not accessible to people using screen readers, and depending on how important Microsoft considers it's own standards, pointing you guys at your own documentation for accessibility on the .net framework, would be like slapping you in the face, now wouldn't it? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Kean Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:27 PM To: ozDotNet; [email protected] Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? Thanks for the feedback. The problem with something like Connect is that it acts like we're always open for taking bugs - but truth is, you need to know the right time to file. If we're at the end of a release (last 4-5 months up-to RTM), then it's extremely unlikely we'll fix something unless it's a regression from a previous release, or a major issue in a new feature. In saying that though, now is a *really good* time to file bugs, please do. Especially around situations that used to work in VS 2010, but don't in VS 2012. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:06 AM To: [email protected]; ozDotNet Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? Thank you; I appreciate it very much. Though the last time I have placed my feedback dealing with accessibility on SQL Server (remember that?), at least on Microsoft connect, the only thing I got is "we'll look into it", which to me, seems to be Microsoft's way of telling me to buzz off because what I had to say is unimportant to them. At least this issue wasn't an issue since 2003 or 2005 like the SQL issue is. I hope we get some good results, but remember that some of this can only be fixed by the manufacturers of the screen readers; they are the ones who don't listen to their customers if their beliefs don't match those of the customer; like take for example, the new modern-style interface. I would love to be able to install and buy tons and tons of apps, but I cannot, because companies like GW micro make a conscious decision not to support the new interface, saying, "The new modern-style interface is for phones, not for desktops", and then make some comment of how they are useless to those without touch screens. But I do not understand why these people find it too much work to keep up with the times. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg Low (GregLow.com) Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:16 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? Hi Katharine, I've passed your comments onto an internal Microsoft mailing list (without identifying you) and I'll let you know what feedback comes back. That's certainly interesting feedback. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Saturday, 16 March 2013 5:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Visual Studio once great for blind users, but not anymore: how to work around this and still be able to learn the Windows 8 Runtime interface? Hi, I would hate to have to run two copies of Visual Studio (one 2010 and the other 2012) on here, for this computer works hard enough, but that's what it's looking like will have to happen in order for me to progress in my C# learning, for after doing some testing, I realized that most of the parts of the interface of Visual Studio that were once accessible to all of my screen readers, are now accessible to none; the properties window, the toolbox, the project properties multitabbe dialog box, and I'm sure there was one other area, of visual studio 2012 are like having nothing there; nothing is read allowed. Try a demo of JAWS from Freedom Scientific or Window-Eyes from GWMicro (you can navigate with the mouse for the most part even with screen readers enabled), and do a side-by-side comparison of the toolbox especially, since this is the real gotcha here. To test them, use your arrows and your tab key to examine the toolbox. You will notice one thing. 2010 reads, 2012 doesn't! And never mind learning the new Windows interface from a programming prospective, but I don't think there's a way to enable those templates in VS 2010? If there is, please, tell me how. The second reason I'm sending this message out is because one ambitious technologist like me requesting support from GWMicro, Serotek, and Freedom Scientific to give support for the latest version of Visual Studio is not going to do much. I need a ton of us requesting it; maybe even the sighted community; to remind these people that the blind community will not bend to their will (that is, stop updating the support to support the latest features and interfaces properly, so in terms of Visual Studio, restricting blind people to the 2010 version if they want to get anything productive done, and the sad thing is that most of us just accept that and move on), so that they can give up keeping with updated versions. It's like screen reader manufacturers are stuck in the time when from windows version to windows version, things didn't change much; it's like they are deliberately refusing to keep up. Like they're stuck in a rut. And I'll tell you, I'm not having this anymore. Are you? Who's with me on this? Thanks to everyone on here, and I look forward to this discussion continuing.
