I wish this was something I knew back in '94 when I started. Luckily I got a great lawyer back then so not all bad.
On 5 August 2013 22:53, Richard Jones <[email protected]> wrote: > Scott, > > FK YOU PAY ME - very informative. Again, very good advice. > > Thank you. > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 14:18:27 +1000 > > Subject: Re: Estimate Time and Cost before signing a contract > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > > Also consider the following > > - All code/IP is locked into escrow until both parties confirm delivery > (protects you and them at the same time). > - Fixed contracts are just that a contract based on fixed units of work. > Any deviation whatsoever is a separate contract and don't just "give > freebies" away as it can backfire on you given you're setting a tone / > assumed & reasonable agreement precedent. > - Place financial milestone rewards. Don't wait holding the "code" bag at > the end, have the customer pay for each milestone as this will give both > parties an exist strategy should the wheels start coming off.. Also bake in > a % of the total cost (5%) as a carrot for final delivery + Severity #1 > free to show customer you are sticking around for the long haul. > - Identify a communication plan upfront. "We agree to have 1x meeting each > XXX days...etc" if you ever go to Small Claims Tribunal for non-payment > these sort of agreements hold more water than you think. As in situations > like that you're trying to prove the customer had lost the faith and you > were there all along. > - FK YOU PAY ME....https://vimeo.com/22053820 watch and learn.. this guy > made me laugh but after retaining a lawyer for small jobs here & there.. > his wisdom won me more $$ back then previous.. The amount of times > customers would just fade away after I did the work made me almost broke at > one stage in 2010. > - Be clear what IP/Copyright you own before and after. I accidentally got > in hot water with Aust Govt after I used a design i made on my portfolio. > Turns out copyright law says I own all artwork unless done by govt ...its > as if they did that deliberately .. but it caught me by surprise and from > there onwards i carve the IP/Copyright cake upfront and cleanly that way no > more of these "but i own the IP" shenanigans. Plus it reinforces trust some > more around who gets what and why. > - Make the customer pay for the discovery and delivery... its one thing to > say "here's a brief overview of what i need now how much" as you can charge > the client for the discovery phase as well as delivery. It also is a good > milestone PRIOR to doing any "Agile" ... as that "feature" list doesn't > make itself :) > > My 2c. > > > --- > Regards, > Scott Barnes > http://www.riagenic.com > > > On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Richard Jones <[email protected]>wrote: > > Thanks Paul for advice, > > This is really useful information. > > Richard > > > > ------------------------------ > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Estimate Time and Cost before signing a contract > Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 09:32:02 +1000 > > > Richard, > > Great advice there from Greg. > > I do a lot of lump sum fee work, but as an independent project manager in > property development and construction (coding my own web project ideas is a > hobby yet to pay any dividends) > > In terms of how you go about it I suggest – > > 1. Write your scope / role in broad but concise terms to provide to > the client (but this is just as much for your own benefit as follows); > > 2. List your deliverables and describe them. I guess for software you > need to describe the functionality / limits of functionality to be achieved > as well; > > 3. Determine your lump sum amount by listing in a spreadsheet, in > sequence, every step and item of work you need to achieve the end result, > and estimate your number of hours for each, then apply your hourly rate. > The more you break this down, the more realistic it will be with respect to > the real cost to do the work, and the less dependent the amount will be on > the accuracy of your hour estimates for each item. If you know the client > and they are straight forward people consider providing this to them and > asking if that’s the way they see the task as well. As many times as I’ve > had to cut the estimate to meet expectations or get the job I’ve also had > good sensible clients say they believe more time would be required overall. > Of course they may use your list to get prices from someone else but at > least that helps prevent a less competent person getting the work by > failing to identify all the work items required; > > 4. Work out the things to advise that will change the cost and the > parameters you need them to work within ie; respond to my queries within 1 > business day, provide a client rep responsible for that, reprice if project > duration > X months through no fault of your own, no allowance for any > matter becoming protracted etc. Use these qualifications in your offer. > > Lump sum fees can be very uncomfortable for you and the client (and > ruinous to your financial wellbeing) if you don’t manage it every step of > the way through the job. Maintain a good relationship with the client, > don’t be talking fees all the time or much at all, try to accommodate > errors and stuff-ups on their part generously, but when the scope changes > be quick to say Yes, I can do that, it’s a great idea, and here’s an > estimate of costs to implement it (include reworking costs). > > Paul .. > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Richard Jones > *Sent:* Saturday, 3 August 2013 6:52 AM > *To:* ozDotNet > *Subject:* RE: Estimate Time and Cost before signing a contract > > Thanks Greg, > > Very good advice provided, Greatly appreciated. I will review what you > have written and come to a decision. > > Richard > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 22:47:56 +1000 > Subject: Re: Estimate Time and Cost before signing a contract > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Hi Richard, > > Fixed price quotes can be a great way to make good money and to lose hard > earned money, you have to take care and make sure you know what you are > getting yourself into. > > Businesses like them, because they know their maximum exposure. > > I find that there a far too many clients, who think that they can estimate > software development time, but they have little (no) true experience in > software development. > > Some thoughts… > > Make sure that scope is clear with at least one bullet point for every > deliverable that you know they are expecting and also clearly state that > anything not listed in the deliverables will be cost plus later. > > This also helps them make sure that they have asked for everything they > want / expect. I also typically have a list of non-deliverables, where we > have discussed some feature and agreed that it would be included in a later > version. > > Make sure that the contract is not a one way street, if you are expected > to take the risk on a late delivery, you should also get the reward of > getting it in early. If the client is asking you for a fixed price, then > you should have the option to do the work where, when and how you like. > This also ties the client into waterfall development, once you give them a > version for test / review, there will be a stack of change requests coming > in AT THEIR COST! > > I have found that some projects more than double in size with the change > requests, that is why they have to be managed. Take care doing a few for > free, or you will set up an expectation. > > Look out for clauses like: “Must be easy to use”, “Must be documented to > our standard”, “Must be fully commented”, “Must follow our coding > standard”, “Must be approved by our standards group”, “Must be approved by > our DBA”, “Must interface with our un-documented system”, these are all > open ended non-objective unclear requirements. > > My standard way of sizing a project is loosely based on (very loosely) > function point counting, I count the number of database tables and simple > screens and multiply this by a factor that I have worked out over the years > of my realistic productivity, then I add on a margin for complex logic, > complex screens, client liaison time, documentation, testing and general > stuffing around that all projects have. > > Number one piece of advice, if you feel you don’t have enough information > to make a meaningful estimation, then do your best (worse case) guess and > at least double it. > > After I have done this, I look at the number and ask if it feels right or > not, if not I adjust it. When you come to a final number, round it to a > number that is not quite so analytical, the last two or three digits should > always be zeros. > > If they say sign now or loose the contract, you say, that is fine, I will > sign after I complete the analysis at $X per hour, if they don’t like that, > you have to make the call on risk / reward ratio. > > Your analysis time should be charged or you are setting up an expectation > that you will do work for free. > > Follow every conversation with an email to the client sponsor, CC to who > you were talking to “As per my conversation with Fred, you need xyz and do > not need abc. This will be provided with an increase in the project scope > of X days and Y dollars. Please confirm your agreement by return email.”. > > Good luck > Regards > Greg Harris > > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Richard Jones <[email protected]> > wrote: > I have been asked by a potential client to work out time and cost estimate > before I have signed a contract to perform the work. They indicated they > didn't want a recruitment company. > > To me this seems a bit strange, as I have never experienced this before, I > have usually signed a contract got in and did the work, however, this is > different. They have indicated to me that they think this type of work will > take 3 months, however, they would like me to confirm/demonstrate time and > cost. > > Has anyone had this type of work?, any helpful comments/suggestions would > be grateful. > > > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3209/6544 - Release Date: 08/01/13 > > > -- regards, Preet, Overlooking the Ocean, Auckland
