I meant "said" not saod!! I am a little stunned by all this. It is not the discussion I had hoped for. While I think education programs of every description must be open to challenge and discussion and debate as well as the services we provide, this went somewhere else.
Anyway... I remain stunned. I do have some email addresses of Canadian midwives who I went to school with in Seattle. Where in Canada are you going Trish? I have 2 friends who run a free-standing birth centre in Bellingham, Washington, USA just south of Vancouver BC, Canada. A border crossing maybe? I also have friends in Vancouver and in a little town near London, Ontario. I will be checking out their email addresses to see if they are still current. If you want to visit birth centers in Canada do a google search for free-standing birth centers in Canada they have quite a few (I found them when I was doing that search a while back). keep on keeping on marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Kleidon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re: uterinerupture 1998 > Wonderfully saod trish. Please don't give up. > > marilyn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trish David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:27 PM > Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Students, training and other things was Re: > uterinerupture 1998 > > > > Abby, if I didn't think I was trying to impart a degree of wisdom, and > > assist students to find their own wisdom, together with the women (heard > > of the follow-through experience???) and the lovely midwives in > > hospitals who assist them with onsite learning, and the VERY occassional > > homebirth midwife who can take a student... then I would give it up. > > With (diminishing) respect, evaluate a curriculum or two, enrol in a > > midwifery program, and don't generalise what you see in a workshop of 10 > > midwives to what is taught in every curriculum in Australia. > > > > Every curriculum I have evaluated has a focus on non-intervention for > > 'normal' childbearing and that includes programs from 4 states in > > Australia, both postgraduate and undergraduate. I have participated in > > curriculum development at undergraduate, grad dip and masters level > > midwifery and used programs from NZ, Holland, Scandinavia and UK and > > Canada for inspiration and international comparison. And I know many > > colleagues in other universities who have done the same. In addition, we > > now have Standards to which we are held that are based in international > > benchmarks for midwifery education, and there are moves now to develop > > more national benchmarks in what is offered in midwifery programs. Your > > criticisms are hollow in the face of this real work. Your rhetoric is > > empty of real examples. > > > > My students learn active birth, pelvic mapping, physiological processes, > > support for all of this and many have also been to 'workshops' with ten > > midwives and say they learned little new that wasn't offered in their > > program..... hmmm. I encourage them to go, though, because they > > sometimes bring something new back for me, too. > > > > As to the third world, yes, I have seen the Birthrites video, too, it is > > wonderful, but only a very small sample of what is out there and > > certainly can't be generalised to the rest of the world. Through ICM/WHO > > documents etc as well as direct communication with women and midwives > > know that the problems in many countries cannot be fixed with a few > > herbs, no matter how good their public health and nutrition. Have a look > > at another fabulous video "Celebrations" about the role of midwives > > across cultures and contexts. Women die because they don't have access > > to a 'facility' that can offer them antibiotics, anaesthesia and > > operative birth. They die of tetanus and pnuemonia, of septicaemia and > > blood loss, of obstructed labour and AIDS. Planting crops and fixing > > plumbing is one aspect of what is needed here, but good nutrition and > > education take two-three generations to improve the health of a > > population. In the meantime these individual women are just trying to > > stay alive. > > > > Women in these contexts want good drugs, skilled users of instruments > > and operative procedures, immunisation and contraception, safe abortion, > > nutritional supplements and freedom from patriarchal, economic, > > religious and political oppression. They want TBAs with western as well > > as traditional learning, they want access to western trained doctors and > > midwives, nurses and dentists, etc. Midwifery cannot stand alone to > > deliver, we need to put aside a moral highground and work with all > > sectors of health and education, etc to achieve outcomes in thees > > contexts. > > > > Dare I say it, the same is true here. In many, many gov't reports women > > in Australia want an integrated maternity service that uses the best > > talents of all practitioners working together to offer choice (including > > all the unpalatable ones like epidural, induction and LUSCS on demand, > > all of which I would cringe at). > > > > Yes, midwives are 'trained' differently now. Now we have to learn how to > > be discerning consumers of research, to critique all forms of dogma, to > > understand the physiology, not just rote-learn something, we must also > > understand a rationale for actions and learn to be fully accountable for > > them, we must commit to lifelong learning, to participate in quality > > improvement of services, and to work in a multi-disciplinary environment > > with a wide variety of women. We no longer have the excuse of this is > > the way I was taught.... I believe we are coming to quite a good > > balance, though we are not there yet. I look forward to the day when > > there are enough homebirths for students to participate in, enough > > homebirth midwives for them to learn from, and enough midwife-led > > programs for them to work in whilst in hospitals. For now, we don't have > > that, but we sure teach students what that is about. Every program I > > have read has whole units devoted to political issues and professional > > issues in midwifery and maternity. The scope is much wider than ever > > before. And yes, we do give students survival skills and knowledge for > > working in the system, would you have us sacrifice them? It is our duty > > to them to support and help them survive the system, while assisting > > them to decide what is bad about it... and what is good (and there is > > some good out there). I don't think it's true to say a lot of > > universities teach students how to intervene, or fail to impart > > reverence and trust. I wouldn't presume to know what goes on in > > individual classrooms because I am not there. And many graduates I speak > > to, many lecturers, and many students have a very midwifery philosophy > > and strive hard to keep that alive. Perhaps we can't give them every > > tool, no one knows everything, and our training programs are short but > > overstuffed with content. Perhaps we could improve, and we continually > > strive to. > > > > Now, give me some examples. Back yourself up. What traditional ways are > > you talking about specifically? What specific wisdom is missing and how > > would you provide it? Not just a blanket statement like working with > > women, this has no meaning beyond what the individual determines it to > > mean, give an example. Teach me. > > > > What traditional herbs would prevent PPH (we use one, ergot, that has > > been in use for 4000 years but is now much more reliable quality because > > of what modern pharmacology has done to it) and where is the proof? > > > > Where are you going to find independent midwives to apprentice the 1500 > > midwives + per year we need (Vic)? Where are you going to find the women > > willing to have students follow them through, because we are certainly > > having problems doing this now? > > > > Abby, please, get out there and find some good examples for us. We think > > we have many of them on offer, poorly resourced and always under > > pressure they may be, but we do have them. We mightn't live up to your > > ideals, but there are many midwives trying hard to change the system, > > often in the face of considerable apathy and antipathy from the women of > > their communities...... > > > > I think it's time I quit midwifery, really. Too hard, too painful. Trish > > > > > > > > > > -- > > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > > > > > -- > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. > Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe. > -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
