I definitely see Michel's Partner State as the state becoming more network-like and less statelike, and possibly an initial step toward Proudhon's idea of dissolving the state's functions into the social body.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote: > Can commonification of cities and regions happen.... and then may it become > the commonification of the State -which might meen simulateneoulsy > dissolution of social power back into where it came from, the society? > > Here are some intriguining calls: > > Commons Josaphat > MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com" > claiming to be http://commonsjosaphat.wordpress.com/ > Let's win Barcelona: > MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com" > claiming to be > http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/guanyem-commons-barcelona/ > Commune of Europe: > MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com" > claiming to be http://www.thecommuneofeurope.org/ > . > What if .. we call all the cities of the world to commonify and then reunion > as one undivided humanity, from bottom up pushing city governments, parties, > nation states to turn into direct democratic p2p non-states.. > > The tricky point is how are you going to convince those who hold privileges > over 'lower order', untrustworthy ordinary rank and file people. There are > many of those elite actively benefiting from the existing power structures, > and may be much less those who are wise and modest and who would pursue this > goal by confronting the bad boys.. of course all of them as those of us > outside are embedded in capitalist mode of production -the very base the > existing power structure is relying dialectically. So multi scale deliberate > counter creative and civil offensive to realize the transitions is needed in > my opinion, so assertively and openly. > > So one person, or network of people, might be able to choose to engage, at > one or more level. Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be > realized from one by empowering the grassroots; setting check and balance > protocols in their p2p communities themselves and ensuring that those > protocols are working; then declaring that (Zapatista like) 'we don't want > to hold any enclosed and un-socialised power, for people and make them do > something we believe that it is good for them; yet we will try to work with > those who are in the State in case they accept to collaborate with us in > re-socializing the political power. So some kind of open p2p written > charter, like a new wiki social civil contracts are needed indeed to justify > any close engagement with non-p2p and anti-p2p structures. > > Since any currently power and wealth holding elite, his/her current 'being' > is threatened (same as the feudal aristocracy felt threatened their 'being' > by the bourgeoisie), by mass participation in social life, anyone need to > realize the support of that kind of mass grassroots support. > > If we have a clear ruling class and power structures analyses at hand, > context by context, next to our own open and p2p check and balance > mechanisms for the networks, and wiki charters. then engaging enemy at > various levels, getting support of those positive, critical and sincere > elements active in those structures (like snowden) with varying, dynamic and > harmonizable strategies. > > Such strategies should be very clearly and without compromise putting back > all the commons; including labour, creative energy, and resources, back in > grassroots' so that the self-empowerment of people is increasingly > guaranteed. > > Just continuos brain storming.. Not beliefs, so very wide open to any > critics > > Orsan > > > On 17 jul. 2014, at 18:44, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on. > > Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a 'Partner State', and lessons > for future Commons Transition Strategies > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-partner-state-and-lessons-for-future-commons-transition-strategies/2014/07/10#comment-810601 > > We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue > this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we > have to bring this two language spaces together. > > many greetings, willi > Bogota, Colombia > > > --- Quiliro wrote > > Great to see Michel's and Willi's great perspectives. > > I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing > the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel > states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over > people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the > state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to > exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or > stateful society against these abuses? > > > --- my answer > > dear Quiliro and all, > > your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to > do for independence in our development of our life environment? > > Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a > partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what > is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that. > > I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation. > > Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to > independent checks and balances - Pillay > http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=E > > Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism - A New > Communist Horizon > http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-alternative-to-capitalism-a-new-communist-horizon/ > > Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different > backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self > organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing. > > This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in > our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, > then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation > for our future. > > Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and > never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have > to do self. But never alone. > > Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the > primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in > communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social > societies. > > State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should > follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t > understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this > religion. > > many greetings, willi > Bogota, Colombia > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > http://www.p2pfoundation.net > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > -- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
