In that case though they evolved in the context of a larger society built around inequality, where the structural forces favored inequality, and were eventually distorted by that hegemonic structure. As also with your above comment on capital coopting open-source, my gut feeling is that just is the opposite in our time. The cooptation of p2p and micro-manufacturing by finance and by the corporate form is an untenable intermediate stage, in an era where the long-term structural trends are against large-scale institutions of capital and state.
On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Kevin, > > the times when guilds and commons associations in the countryside provided > these solidarity mechanisms, were highly unequal periods; and a patchwork of > independent guilds would quickly lead to highly unequal outcomes (the > monopoly game) ; this is why we need democratic polities to insure overall > equality; > > as far as I understand the evolution of the guilds, they started > differentiatiing, merchant guilds became the strongest, and families > detached themselves from the guilds to become early capitalists > > I think the difference between us is whether a society exists separately as > a field seperately from private agreements between autonomous players : I > think it does and so we need a democratic polity to address common > 'territorial' and other issues. > > On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:57 AM, Kevin Carson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I think there will likely be analogues of the Basic Income even in a >> non-state framework, provided by post-capitalist equivalents of >> medieval guilds, commons rights in open field villages, and the like. >> As states and corporations become fiscally exhausted and retreat from >> the social field, and both state- and employer-based safety nets >> erode, people will fill the void by creating a wide variety of primary >> social units on a multi-family scale for pooling income, costs and >> risks -- much like the self-sufficient units that emerged during the >> collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Micro-villages, extended family >> compounds, neighborhood associations and co-housing arrangements, >> urban communes.... A growing share of people will be born into such >> primary social units as the new norm, with an automatic right to an >> aliquot share of arable land and/or access to machines in the >> community shop, and some minimum (probably quite modest by our >> standards) required number of hours producing for common consumption >> in return for guaranteed sustenance to children, the aged and those >> unable to work. >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > except you cannot ever institute a basic unconditional income outside of >> > the >> > collective institution that is the state .. so there is a choice to be >> > made, >> > where do you put your energy ... achieving the basic income would >> > require >> > significant social mobilization and energy. >> > >> > continuing to work on the commons economy on the other hand, is >> > something we >> > can, and even must do, in the context of increasing market and state >> > failure, >> > >> > Michel >> > >> > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> All of these proposals are not intrinsically opposed to each other. >> >> They >> >> can all run, indeed should run alongside each other. These are all >> >> possible >> >> solutions. Why waste time arguing which one is better? Being creative >> >> means >> >> using all of them at different times, in different circumstances. >> >> History >> >> cannot prove to us that what failed before will not at some future date >> >> be >> >> successful. We may see trends now, but we cannot predict with certainty >> >> that >> >> these will become strong enough to replace the current capital system, >> >> or >> >> that elites will give up their power without violent resistance. >> >> >> >> Anna >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 17 Jun 2016, at 02:25, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I agree Ellen that this is also a very important third aspect, but also >> >> requires major political and social power to achieve it. The present >> >> land >> >> and water commons are declining rather than becoming stronger. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:51 PM, Ellen Friedman >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I think Jakob speaks to something I noticed after reading Michel’s >> >>> original piece that began this discussion. Michel wrote, "Overcoming >> >>> the >> >>> capitalist form of the market, means interfering in capital >> >>> accumulation. >> >>> This can and must be done in two ways.” >> >>> >> >>> There’s a third way that’s essential to interfering with capital >> >>> accumulation. This third way is to liberate the land, waters and all >> >>> life. >> >>> The life blood of capitalism is the living planet. Privatization of >> >>> the >> >>> land, water and all life must end. Land and water must be liberated >> >>> from the >> >>> social construct of property. Life should never be property. >> >>> >> >>> One way I see this happening is by creating a polycentric system of >> >>> planetary commons trusts formed around ecosystems so they can be >> >>> stewarded >> >>> both locally and globally. In order to right the wrong of >> >>> dispossession and >> >>> create reparations, local stewardship could be led by indigenous >> >>> peoples. >> >>> Once the living planet is in a trust, corporations and governments >> >>> should be >> >>> charged rent for using the land, water, minerals and more. This would >> >>> end >> >>> externalization of costs. The trusts could set limits on what is taken >> >>> in >> >>> order to restore the planet to health and steward the living land and >> >>> waters >> >>> in perpetuity. Funds raised in this way could provide the means for >> >>> planetary restoration and a basic income for humans. >> >>> >> >>> There’s a movement to create a fifth missing international crime >> >>> against >> >>> peace- ecocide. Corporations who have committed ecocide should be >> >>> prosecuted, their assets seized and their charters revoked. Seized >> >>> assets >> >>> could be used to remediate the harm and provide additional operational >> >>> funds >> >>> for the trusts. For example, BP’s assets could be used to create a >> >>> trust for >> >>> the Gulf of Mexico and the people of the area. Exxon’s assets could be >> >>> used >> >>> to combat climate change and provide funds for resettling refugees. >> >>> >> >>> Ellen >> >>> Austin, Tx. >> >>> >> >>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 6:03 AM, Jakob Rigi <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Michel, >> >>> >> >>> You simply avoid to answer my questions. Capitalism emerged by >> >>> dispossessing immediate producers from their means of productions and >> >>> transforming these producers into waged labourers. Capitalism >> >>> reproduces >> >>> itself by paying wages that are enough for the reproduction of labour >> >>> power. >> >>> Thus the worker remain dispossessed. Land and nature as the main >> >>> source of >> >>> life are private property of capitalists. No one will ever be able to >> >>> build >> >>> a new collective mode of production without collectivising first land >> >>> and >> >>> other means of production and this requires expropriating capitalists: >> >>> a >> >>> social revolution. You avoid to answer the questions by the rhetoric >> >>> that >> >>> the Marxist strategy has failed. If by the Marxist strategy you mean >> >>> the >> >>> Soviet case, it had some achievements but failed. But, that failure >> >>> does >> >>> not imply that the historical project of expropriating capitalist has >> >>> failed. The industrial capitalism first emerged in Italian city states >> >>> but >> >>> was aborted there. Later, in more mature condition it took not only >> >>> root in >> >>> Britain but become globalised. Generalising the soviet experiment in >> >>> rhetorical way as you do into a law is very mechanistic and >> >>> deterministic. >> >>> The failure of the Soviet experiment is by no means prove that a new >> >>> effort >> >>> in our time for expropriating the expropriators will also fail. We >> >>> need to >> >>> judged the success and failure of the Soviet case in its historical >> >>> conditions. >> >>> Jakob >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ________________________________ >> >>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of >> >>> Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> >>> Sent: 15 June 2016 17:25 >> >>> To: Jakob Rigi >> >>> Cc: Orsan Senalp; Commoning; [email protected]; >> >>> p2p-foundation >> >>> Subject: Re: [NetworkedLabour] A note on the post-capitalist strategy >> >>> of >> >>> the P2P Foundation >> >>> >> >>> Jakob, >> >>> >> >>> capitalism can only reproduce itself through commodity labor and >> >>> workers >> >>> as consumers, this gives us powerful leverage. >> >>> >> >>> if we don't have the power, nor a social consensus to 'expropriate', >> >>> the >> >>> building of counter-hegemonic power is essential to get there ... >> >>> merely >> >>> mobilizing counter-power within the capitalist system, i.e. dependent >> >>> labor, >> >>> has not worked for 200 years, and I see few signs that it can. The >> >>> diverse >> >>> forms of property that exist, and protected by the state, can be used >> >>> by >> >>> commoners to mutualize capital and means of production. Obviously, >> >>> powerful >> >>> social movements can set rules to limit monopolistic control of >> >>> resources, >> >>> but then you still have to deal with the impotence of nations to do >> >>> this, >> >>> and they most likely will smash you, as they are doing with greece and >> >>> venezuela and elsewhere. This brings to the fore the other aspect of >> >>> our >> >>> strategy, which is to built counter-hegemonic power at the global >> >>> level. >> >>> Just screaming "I hate capitalism and I will smash you" is not going >> >>> to do >> >>> it. >> >>> >> >>> The strategy we describe worked for capital and for all the previous >> >>> transitions (read Karatini), while the marxist strategy of taking >> >>> power and >> >>> change everything once we have that power, has been a dismal failure. >> >>> So I >> >>> think that continuing in that vein after 200 years of failure, that is >> >>> the >> >>> wishful thinking. It hasn't worked for previous transitions, and isn't >> >>> working for this transition, so what is your evidence ? Our strategy >> >>> is >> >>> based on the necessary prefigurative construction of counter-power, >> >>> which is >> >>> how past transitions were successful >> >>> >> >>> Michel >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Jakob Rigi <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Mitchel >> >>>> The idea that commoners and cooperative worker can challenge >> >>>> capitalism >> >>>> by working for themselves and make the state their partner is a >> >>>> wishful >> >>>> fantasy- is not realisable. >> >>>> Capitalism is in the first place the private ownership in means of >> >>>> production. And the state is in the first place the power and >> >>>> institutions >> >>>> that protect the private property in means of production. >> >>>> No cooperative production can become the dominant mode of production >> >>>> unless land and other strategic means of productions have been >> >>>> transformed >> >>>> into commons. >> >>>> Do you agree with this statement? If not what are your counter >> >>>> argument? >> >>>> >> >>>> If yes, then how land other strategic means of production can be >> >>>> transformed into commons? >> >>>> I argue that this require expropriating capitalists. If you disagree, >> >>>> what are your counter arguments? >> >>>> If you agree, then, making the production of commons the dominant >> >>>> mode >> >>>> of production requires confronting the sate not becoming its partner. >> >>>> Capitalist did not needed always to expropriate the feudal >> >>>> landowners since >> >>>> the latter started to lease their land to capitalists. But, >> >>>> capitalists >> >>>> expropriated small owners the means of production-the so called >> >>>> primitive >> >>>> accumulation. The emerging Feudal class did not expropriate the >> >>>> slave >> >>>> owners since salve owners themselves became feudals. But, capitalist >> >>>> having >> >>>> expropriated the majority of the population and thereby have >> >>>> monopolised the >> >>>> strategic means of production. Transferring these means of production >> >>>> to the >> >>>> majority, meaning making them universal commons of humanity requires >> >>>> expropriating capitalists. But, state would not allow us to do that. >> >>>> It will >> >>>> tell you that capitalist ownership is guaranteed by the law. And the >> >>>> law is >> >>>> the holiest of the holy. We-the state- will not permit anyone to >> >>>> break the >> >>>> law even if it will be necessary to shed blood. Our monopoly right >> >>>> our >> >>>> violence is here to protect capitalist property in means of >> >>>> production . >> >>>> So the commoners mus confront such a state and smash at least its >> >>>> coercive and violent institutions and expropriate the expropriators >> >>>> for the >> >>>> benefit of the humanity as whole and transform their property int >> >>>> universal >> >>>> commons. >> >>>> >> >>>> Jakob >> >>>> Jakob >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: NetworkedLabour <[email protected]> on >> >>>> behalf of Orsan Senalp <[email protected]> >> >>>> Sent: 15 June 2016 10:47 >> >>>> To: Jakob Rigi; Michel Bauwens >> >>>> Cc: Commoning; [email protected]; p2p-foundation >> >>>> Subject: Re: [NetworkedLabour] A note on the post-capitalist strategy >> >>>> of >> >>>> the P2P Foundation >> >>>> >> >>>> There are many overlapping aspect between Cox, and Van Der Pijl's >> >>>> 'transnational historical materialist' analysis and what you have put >> >>>> together Michel.So I share the vision, I only would add a >> >>>> direct-action, >> >>>> political confrontation axe which needs to be built based on what can >> >>>> be >> >>>> imagined as 'peer to peer social network unionism'. As supportive >> >>>> element in >> >>>> terms of organizing power, and broader alliance building, hence >> >>>> collectivization of working alternatives and to defend them against >> >>>> ruling >> >>>> class violence and use of force. Not to precede what you suggest or >> >>>> to >> >>>> replace it but simultaneously empower the counter hegemonic >> >>>> transnational >> >>>> trinity (of as in Cox Institutons-material capabilities-ideas / >> >>>> capital-state-nation). >> >>>> >> >>>> Orsan >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On 15 Jun 2016, at 03:56, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> some of you may be interested in this short note: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Post-Capitalist Strategy of the P2P Foundation >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Discussion[edit] >> >>>> >> >>>> Michel Bauwens: >> >>>> "A note on the post-capitalist strategy of the P2P Foundation >> >>>> Following Kojin Karatini, we agree that the present system is based >> >>>> on a >> >>>> trinity of capital-state-nation, which represents an integration of >> >>>> three >> >>>> modes of exchange. Capital represents a particular market form based >> >>>> on the >> >>>> endless accumulation of capital, the state is the entity that keeps >> >>>> the >> >>>> system together through coercion, law and redistribution (Karatini >> >>>> calls >> >>>> this function ‘rule and protect’), and the nation is the ‘imagined >> >>>> community’ that is the locus of the survival of community and >> >>>> reciprocity. A >> >>>> post-capitalist strategy must necessarily overcome all three in a new >> >>>> integration. >> >>>> Overcoming the capitalist form of the market, means interfering in >> >>>> capital accumulation. This can and must be done in two ways. First of >> >>>> all, >> >>>> the capitalist market requires labor as a commodity, and therefore, >> >>>> overcoming capitalism means refusing to work for capitalism as >> >>>> commodity >> >>>> labor. Hence the stress on open cooperativism, i.e. commoners work >> >>>> for >> >>>> themselves, in democratic associations and create autonomous >> >>>> livelihoods >> >>>> around our commons, protected from value capture through membranes >> >>>> such as >> >>>> reciprocity-based licenses. Measures like the basic income also >> >>>> substantially remove the compulsion for workers to have to sell their >> >>>> labor >> >>>> power, and would strengthen the capacity to create alternative >> >>>> economic >> >>>> entities. However, we must proceed with the reality that exists >> >>>> today, and >> >>>> create our own funding and resource allocation mechanisms. The second >> >>>> way is >> >>>> to withdraw from capitalism and capital accumulation is by removing >> >>>> our >> >>>> cooperation as consumers. Without workers as producers and workers as >> >>>> consumers, there can be no reproduction of capital. The latter means >> >>>> the >> >>>> invention and creation of new forms of consumption that are derived >> >>>> from the >> >>>> creation of open cooperatives. Workers mutualize their consumption in >> >>>> pooled >> >>>> market forms such as community-supported agriculture and the like. To >> >>>> the >> >>>> degree that we systematically organize new provisioning and >> >>>> consumption >> >>>> systems, outside of the sphere of capital, we undermine the >> >>>> reproduction of >> >>>> capital and capital accumulation. In addition, we create >> >>>> ‘transvestment’ >> >>>> vehicles, which allow the acceptance of capital, as disciplined by >> >>>> the new >> >>>> commons and market forms that we develop through peer production, >> >>>> this >> >>>> creates a flow of value from the system of capital to the system of >> >>>> the >> >>>> commons economy. Faced with a crisis of capital accumulation, it is >> >>>> entirely >> >>>> realistic to expect a stream of value which seeks a place in the >> >>>> commons >> >>>> economy. Instead of the cooptation of the commons economy by capital, >> >>>> in the >> >>>> form of the netarchical capitalist platforms which capture value from >> >>>> the >> >>>> commons, we coopt capital inside the commons, and subject it to its >> >>>> rules. >> >>>> >> >>>> I believe we can achieve similar effects with the state. Our strategy >> >>>> for a ‘partner state’ is to ‘commonify’ the state. We strive to >> >>>> transform >> >>>> state functions so that they actually empower and enable the autonomy >> >>>> of the >> >>>> citizens as individuals and groups, to create common resources, >> >>>> instead of >> >>>> being ‘consumers’ of state services. We abolish the separation of the >> >>>> state >> >>>> from the population by increasing democratic and participatory >> >>>> decision-making. We consider the public service as a commons, giving >> >>>> every >> >>>> citizen and resident the right to work in the commonified public >> >>>> services. >> >>>> But we don’t ‘withdraw’ completely from the state because we need >> >>>> common >> >>>> good institutions for everyone in a given territory, which creates >> >>>> equal >> >>>> capacities for every citizen to contribute to the commons and the >> >>>> ethical >> >>>> market organizations. >> >>>> >> >>>> In another article we have argued that the capital-state-nation >> >>>> trinity >> >>>> is no longer able to balance global capitalism, because it has >> >>>> created a >> >>>> very powerful transnational financial class, which is able to move >> >>>> resources >> >>>> globally and discipline the state and the nations that dare rebalance >> >>>> it. >> >>>> Our answer is to create trans-local and trans-national civic and >> >>>> economic >> >>>> entities that can eventually rebalance and counter the power of the >> >>>> transnational capitalist class. This is realistic because peer >> >>>> production >> >>>> technologies create global open design communities that mutualize >> >>>> knowledge >> >>>> on a global scale, and because we can create global and ethical >> >>>> market >> >>>> organizations around them. Even as we produce locally, we organize >> >>>> trans-local productive communities. These trans-local productive >> >>>> communities >> >>>> are no longer bound by the nation-state and project and require forms >> >>>> of >> >>>> governance that can operate on the global scale. In this way, they >> >>>> also >> >>>> transcend the power of the nation-state. As we explained in our >> >>>> strategy >> >>>> regarding the global capitalist market, these forces can operate >> >>>> against the >> >>>> accumulation of capital at the global level, and create global >> >>>> counter-hegemonic power. In all likelihood, this will create global >> >>>> governance mechanisms and institutions that are no longer >> >>>> inter-national, >> >>>> but trans-national, but are not transnational capitalism. >> >>>> In conclusion, our aim is to replace the capital-state-nation >> >>>> trinity, >> >>>> which is no longer functioning, and to avoid global domination of >> >>>> private >> >>>> capital, by creating a new integrative trinity, Commons-Ethical >> >>>> Market- >> >>>> Partner State, that is not confined to the nation-state level, but >> >>>> can >> >>>> operate trans-nationally and transcend the older and dysfunctional >> >>>> trinity. >> >>>> Through these processes, citizens develop cosmopolitan subjectivities >> >>>> but >> >>>> also allegiance to local and trans-national commons-oriented >> >>>> communities of >> >>>> value creation and value distribution." >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >> >>>> http://commonstransition.org >> >>>> >> >>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> >>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >>>> >> >>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >> >>>> http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >>>> >> >>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >> >>> http://commonstransition.org >> >>> >> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> >>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >>> >> >>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >>> >> >>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Commoning mailing list >> >>> Commons-Institut e.V. Germany >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/commoning >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >> >> http://commonstransition.org >> >> >> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> >> >> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> >> >> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> NetworkedLabour mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >> > http://commonstransition.org >> > >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> > >> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> > >> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > NetworkedLabour mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kevin Carson >> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory >> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org >> >> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow >> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous >> >> Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto >> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com >> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com >> _______________________________________________ >> NetworkedLabour mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour > > > > > -- > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ -- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by making a donation. Thank you for your support. https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
