And within the TIMN framework, if I understand it correctly, even the nature of the TIM aspects is dialectically conditioned by their relationship to the commons as a new dominant factor emerges.
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't really share the pessimistic assessment of James, > > for all measures that I know, the commons are in pretty much exponential > uptake > > the issue is more that the commons are captured by capital, but again, > given historical precedents of phase change, this is to be expected, > > Michel > > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 6:13 PM David Ronfeldt <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Many thanks for your reply >> >> I see points I agree with, notably that "those who represent the >> interests of the commons are on the back foot” for all the reasons you >> name. Moreover, for now it’s indeed true that "markets and governments are >> impositions on the commons” — that’s long been so, but the rise of the >> info-age network form may change that, if TIMN is correct. I also generally >> agree that "the possibilities of visionary leadership for decentralized >> commons through public ledgers are thus far unable to generate network >> effects for the public good” — though I’m not all sure what that means >> specifically. >> >> However, I must note that you seem to misunderstand me/TIMN when you say >> that the kind of blockchain project you want "does not involve isolating >> the commons as a separate unit from markets and governments as you [I] >> suggest, since these are in fact not independent sectors but actually vital >> parts of the underlying commons”. But I have never conceived of the commons >> as a “separate unit”. Distinct and boundaried, yes, but separate no. >> Whatever the best words for what I think TIMN implies, they are words that >> should apply to all four TIMN sectors, as aspects of its general system >> dynamics. All four forms are vital to a quadriform society; each is >> distinct and different; independent to a degree, but also interdependent; >> and they interact constantly. >> >> I have additional overarching comments as well, but I’ll put them in my >> reply to Michel. I’m sensing that we have in mind very different concepts >> of the commons sector, more different than I had thought. P2P’s concept >> seems geared primarily to economic matters, whereas i think TIMN’s isn’t. >> More on that later. >> >> >> === >> >> > On Aug 6, 2018, at 8:08 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> > >> > well, David, that would be a great objective but the evidence indicates >> that blockchain is well on its way to becoming a central management tool of >> the capitalist economy >> > >> > once again those who represent the interests of the commons are on the >> back foot, have no political portfolio, lack financing and generally do not >> have an integrated plan >> > >> > indeed, markets and governments are impositions on the commons, but the >> countervailing power of the commons is not in seeing the commons as a >> dialectical synthesis which results from and/or works in >> counter-distinction to markets and governments >> > >> > our theorists are so thoroughly conditioned by the liberal tradition >> that the possibilities of visionary leadership for decentralized commons >> through public ledgers are thus far unable to generate network effects for >> the public good >> > >> > I will be first in line for a blockchain which links the resource >> thresholds of an ecology with the allocations for meeting the needs of the >> population within that ecology, but this project does not involve isolating >> the commons as a separate unit from markets and governments as you suggest, >> since these are in fact not independent sectors but actually vital parts of >> the underlying commons >> > >> > isn't it really about developing a blockchain that transforms markets >> and governments back to their proto-distributional functions for the >> sustainability of the commons in meeting human needs? >> > >> > frankly I've not seen a single blockchain plan that actually links >> resources with population, which leads me to believe that the opportunity >> for a commons blockchain is rapidly slipping away if not already entirely >> lost >> > >> > what I do see is a few commoners creating circles of self-sufficiency >> while a crusade of Libertarians marches to the slogan, Onward Venture >> Capital >> > >> > ----------------------------------------- >> > >> > From: "David Ronfeldt" >> > To: "Michel Bauwens" >> > Cc: "David Ronfeldt", "James Bernard Quilligan", "Alex Pazaitis", >> "Sarah Grace Manski", "xavier rizos", "Xavier BlaqSwans", "Andrea >> Fumagalli", "Alex Foti", "jose ramos", "p2p-foundation" >> > Sent: Monday August 6 2018 6:29:16PM >> > Subject: Re: eco-systemic supply chains are on their way >> > >> > Your email refers to an article about applying blockchain to business >> actors in a market economy. What interests me far more is the nature of >> actors who will end up in a new commons sector, possibly after migrating >> there from the old public and private sectors. Will blockchain-like methods >> give them advantages? Enough to help form and sustain a distinct commons >> sector? >> > >> > As you know, I think good candidates for this sector will come from >> health, education, environment, and welfare activities and related >> insurance entities, following huge reorganizations. A while back I saw an >> article about blockchain’s promise for insurance, observing among other >> points that "Blockchain adoption has the power to transition new and >> existing models of insurance, including P2P insurance, parametric insurance >> and microinsurance, into a new digital age.” >> > >> > The article you circulated about “V-form networks” implies improvements >> for the market sector. Fine with me. But I’d sure like to see lots more >> about competitive advantages for a commons sector vis a vis the old public >> and private sectors, along with cooperative advantages within and without >> this prospective commons sector. At least I’ve seen few references to using >> blockchain/ holochain/ whatever in hospitals and schools. >> > >> > More generally, i shall hope that this prospective new commons sector >> (which will be decades in the making) focuses on being itself, the commons >> sector, and not on transforming all of society. Many problems we have now >> stem from the public and private sectors trying to be so much more than >> they should be, distorting our society (including by squeezing and >> burdening the family /community /household sector). All of which helps >> explain why I’d say politicians like Bernie Sanders and Alexandra >> Ocasio-Perez would be well-advised to cease calling for socialism across >> society as a whole and instead call for socialism in one sector, since the >> commons sector should meet many of their values and principles. TIMN is not >> a socialist theory, but it could commend what I just suggested. >> > >> > Onward. >> > >> > >> > === >> > >> > > On Aug 5, 2018, at 8:19 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > dear James, >> > > >> > > in the context of our study, https://www.foprop.org/ >> stewarding-material-commons >> > /> > >> > > perhaps this context is precisely what you could offer us ? I am also >> still in particular need of a good explanation, for a separate 'explanatory >> box' of the 3 thermodynamic laws, >> > > >> > > Michel >> > > >> > > On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 2:31 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > beyond earthquake, Michel >> > > >> > > the global political economy of supply chains restructured by >> blockchain will be in full operation when emergency rationing is instituted >> about 2040-2045 due to swelling populations, diminishing levels of arable >> land, water, fossil fuels and rare minerals and the debilitating effects of >> climate change >> > > >> > > ----------------------------------------- >> > > >> > > From: "Michel Bauwens" >> > > To: "Alex Pazaitis", "David Ronfeldt", "Sarah Grace Manski", "xavier >> rizos", "Xavier BlaqSwans", "Andrea Fumagalli", "Alex Foti", "jose ramos", >> "p2p-foundation" >> > > Cc: >> > > Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 3:27:49AM >> > > Subject: eco-systemic supply chains are on their way >> > > >> > > I hope this can impress some people that are still on the sidelines >> of this major earthquake, to understand the significance of what is >> occuring right now, a fundamental re-ordering of the capitalist economy >> under new models: >> > > >> > > first of all, see this article, that shows successfull blockchain >> trials for supply chains, https://which-50.com/commbank- >> and-logistics-giants-complete-blockchain-trade-from- >> regional-victoria-to-germany/? >> > /> > >> > > and what it all means in terms of industrial structures see the >> article quoted below, >> > > >> > > but in fact, I don't think their analysis goes far enough, because in >> the ethereum networks, corporates are already subsumed to a eco-system >> consisting not just of companies, but of a multitude of other players, >> including lots of single individuals: >> > > >> > > QUOTE >> > > >> > > Blockchain-Based Corporate V-Networks >> > > = "V-form networks consist of a number of fully independent companies >> that effectively operate as one vertically integrated company through >> blockchain technology". [1] >> > > >> > > Contents [hide] >> > > • 1 Contextual Citation >> > > • 2 Description >> > > • 3 Example >> > > • 3.1 The IBM and Maersk TradeTech >> > > Contextual Citation[edit] >> > > "A blockchain economy will have more, smaller firms linked together >> by protocols. .. It’s worth pointing out that these networks are inherently >> global, and any regulatory questions global as well." >> > > - Chris Berg, Sinclair Davidson and Jason Potts [2] >> > > >> > > Description[edit] >> > > "The Nobel laureate Oliver Williamson distinguishes between U-form >> companies and M-form companies. >> > > Traditional U-form companies are unitary — their units are divided by >> business process (for instance, accounting, human resources, component >> manufacturing, assembly) and are not treated as separate cost centres. >> > > M-form companies are multidivisional — their units are self-contained >> divisions that report profits and losses to an umbrella central body. >> They’re fully owned by a parent company, but they tend to have their own >> business services (accounting and human resources departments, for >> instance) and even market relationships. >> > > But now we see a new corporate form — the V-form network — made >> possible because thanks to the application of distributed ledger technology >> to supply chain problems. >> > > These V-form networks consist of a number of fully independent >> companies that effectively operate as one vertically integrated company >> through blockchain technology, coordinated and supplied by a third party. >> > > This is a big change to the nature of the firm. We can already see >> V-form networks in the real world. They date as far back as January. It is >> surprising the economics community haven’t noticed them yet. >> > > ... >> > > >> > > Blockchains can work to coordinate supply chains without the need for >> either (traditional) vertical integration or regulation. The vertical >> integration is outsourced to a distributed ledger. The blockchain provides >> the managerial service that coordinates each ‘unit’ (that is, firm) in the >> supply chain. >> > > Regulators in any country can deal any firm in the supply chain as if >> it was a small unit of a larger, global company. >> > > Each firm in the supply chain get the benefits of vertical >> integration through a network rather than a hierarchy. >> > > >> > > ... >> > > >> > > In the V-form network, the blockchain’s token establishes the >> consortium, and incentivizes cooperative behaviour. >> > > The token also serves to move rents around the network. In this way, >> the blockchain provides a market mechanism to solve the sort of bargaining >> problems described by another Nobel laureate, Ronald Coase, that may occur >> as the network operates. >> > > Outsourced vertical integration could be applied to many industries >> that are now integrated. Energy firms that currently integrate the >> exploration, production, generation, and retail of electricity might be >> better decomposed, with blockchains and tokens taking the place of head >> offices. The token economy, rather than energy regulators, could make >> decisions about the distribution of rents around the network." ( >> https://medium.com/cryptoeconomics-australia/outsourcing-vertical- >> integration-introducing-the-v-form-network-78e1aa93a814) >> > /> > >> > > Example[edit] >> > > The IBM and Maersk TradeTech[edit] >> > > Chris Berg, Sinclair Davidson and Jason Potts: >> > > "Two weeks into 2018, IBM and the shipping giant Maersk announced a >> joint venture to develop a digital supply chain management system on their >> Hyperledger blockchain platform. Hyperledger is a private blockchain which >> requires permission to access. >> > > In a previous Cryptoeconomics piece, we described how international >> trade is an information problem. As goods are shipped around the world, >> they are accompanied by information — really stacks of paperwork — that >> describe their provenance, destinations, regulatory and tax liabilities and >> so on. >> > > In the IBM-Maersk system, each firm and bureaucracy in the supply >> chain — producers, shippers, port authorities, regulators, importers, >> retailers — will access and update a shared blockchain ledger containing >> all the information needed by each organisation. >> > > And each organisation would have access to that information >> everywhere, ensuring complete visibility on where goods are in the world >> and which economic and regulatory hurdles they next need to overcome." ( >> https://medium.com/cryptoeconomics-australia/outsourcing-vertical- >> integration-introducing-the-v-form-network-78e1aa93a814) >> > /> > >> > > -- >> > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> > > >> > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> > /> > >> > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> > /> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> > > >> > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> > /> > >> > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> > /> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > P2P Foundation - Mailing list > > Blog - http://www.blog.p2pfoundation.net > Wiki - http://www.p2pfoundation.net > > Show some love and help us maintain and update our knowledge commons by > making a donation. Thank you for your support. > https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/donation > > https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > -- Kevin Carson Senior Fellow, Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com Exodus: General Idea of the Revolution in the XXI Century http://exodus875.wordpress.com
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