Hi Patrice, I think you didn't get my point... I mentioned Coltrane as an example of a musician that extrapolated his own instrument from the 12-tone idea (particularly from *A Love Supreme* on).
However, I think that open musical structures are a more complex subject to put it into the "improvisation" badge. For instance, if you take Terry Riley's "In C", to name a well-known piece, its structure is fairly open, although no player improvises. This is also used in many musical pieces and it was discussed even by Umberto Eco as *open works*...* *and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they differ from improvisation... And again, what "whatever he likes" mean when you're using Pd? If you're the composer *and* the performer, you're free to put whatever pleases you aesthetically but that doesn't consist of improvisation, as I see. When you design a patch in Pd you don't have *all* possibilities in your hands at any given time, and that is why I think the idea of improvisation is, perhaps, misinterpreted. I'm not postulating an ultimate truth or mentality whatsoever, I'm just.. speculating. :) Cheers! On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Patrice Colet <[email protected]>wrote: > If the musical structure you are playing on is opened, > also when the player is free to put whatever he likes, > you can call it an improvisation. > You don't need to be Coltrane to improvise, > what the hell is that mentality???? > > > ----- "Pedro Oliveira" <[email protected]> a écrit : > > > Jumping on the discussion (not a frequent poster, but I do follow), I > > must say I agree with Marco... but one question (kinda related, but at > > the same time isn't): what would consist, then, "improvisation" when > > using Pd? > > > > > > I mean, if you consider free improvisation the only thing I can think > > of, in five seconds, is "live coding". However, if you think of an > > instrument there are also "pre-given" structures one must follow, that > > is, pitch range, playability, timbre and so on. Roughly, with > > traditional instruments (from western tradition) you can't go that far > > away from the 12-tone paradigm (of course, a few exceptions here and > > there with guys like Otomo Yoshihide for the guitar or Coltrane/Evan > > Parker for Saxophone), but then, again... what is true improvisation > > in the context of Pd, Max, whatever? > > > > > > I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining > > patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... and if > > improvisation in that case consists of playing notes over the riffs > > and patterns, why use a gestural controller? Just for the sake of > > technology? > > > > > > Such topic interests me a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts :) > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma < [email protected] > > > wrote: > > > > > > Ingo, > > thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement > > and not > > too much music control. > > > > > > > > > > > > This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in > > gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? > > I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our > > perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere > > "device". > > Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this > > aspect. > > > > > > How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in > > time - > > simply with gestural control? > > > > > > Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple > > switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset > > of the next beat or quarter, etc... > > I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. > > I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the "future" > > as it is presented in the video. > > > > > > How would you improvise on scales, pattern or > > harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music > > "beat > > jazz". > > > > > > > > What do you call improvisation in this case? > > How much is he improvising? > > I can imagine he's "improvising" with the melodic lines, but playing > > samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of > > improvisation. > > > > > > cheers, > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Marco Donnarumma > > Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, > > Instructor > > ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) > > The University of Edinburgh, UK > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com > > Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | > > http://www.flxer.net > > Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > [email protected] mailing list > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Pedro Oliveira > > www.partidoalto.net > > soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > [email protected] mailing list > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > > http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > > -- > Patrice Colet > -- Pedro Oliveira www.partidoalto.net soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul
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