Re: [PD] [vd~] VS [delread~] - different delay limit!

Thu, 24 Sep 2015 06:44:53 -0700

Hey, here's my patch that shows that there's no difference between [vd~] and [delwrite~] in your patch. Comparing these two objects involves using them both :-p.
 
Actually it SHOULD only read up to '1000 ms' (minus a block, to be correct), because the subpatch of the delread~ has 4x upsampling. So 1000ms are 176400 samples, which on the other hand correspond to the 4000 ms buffersize of delwrite~. As you can see in the patch, a delay of 2048 samples (1 period of the [osc~]) corresponds to 11 ms and not 46 ms.
 
So I'm wondering why the delay line doesn't appear to stop at 1000 ms, and I can't explain it right now. Even worse, I ran into some more open questions regarding delays and reblocking. I'll think about that later. So thanks for bringing up these things!
 
I've sent another patch, showing the same behaviour with deliberate upsampling instead of overlapping.
 
 
But can we come back to my initial question, why there's a different delay limit for [vd~] and [delread~]? (see vd_vs_delread.pd)
 
Maybe IOhannes? :-)
 
 
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. September 2015 um 16:34 Uhr
Von: "Alexandre Torres Porres" <[email protected]>
An: "Christof Ressi" <[email protected]>
Cc: Pd-List <[email protected]>
Betreff: Re: Re: [PD] [vd~] VS [delread~] - different delay limit!
yeah, the patch I mentioned, is here
 
2015-09-23 11:34 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <[email protected]>:
well, in my test in the attached patch, the delrwrite is at 4000 size, and delread will read all the way up there instead of only to about 1000 as vd~ does
 
I'd like to see your test please, as I dont know what to say, looks to me it is different. I didn't create a second thread cause I thought that another difference between them could be pointed here.
 
about your original question, I can't tell you why it behaves they behave differently, but I do strongly believe that whatever the reason is, this is a problem that should be fixed as they both should, in my view, be able to go up to the specified time limit.
 
cheers  
 
2015-09-23 7:27 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi <[email protected]>:
> vd~ will have that issue where you need to divide the time in ms for the overlap number -
> which I think is bad and maybe it should just work around that. It's really annoying working with a different time range.
> now, delread~ doesn't need that, you can work with the actual ms 
 
That's not true! They both convert the ms information to samples according to the actual samplerate of the subpatch where the object is located at. This is what I've been experiencing and I've checked it again.
 
So can we please come back to my initial question about the different delay limits of [vd~] and [delwrite~]?
 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. September 2015 um 21:32 Uhr
Von: "Alexandre Torres Porres" <[email protected]>
An: "Christof Ressi" <[email protected]>
Cc: Pd-List <[email protected]>
Betreff: Re: [PD] [vd~] VS [delread~] - different delay limit!
I found another difference between vd~ and delread~
 
vd~ will have that issue where you need to divide the time in ms for the overlap number - which I think is bad and maybe it should just work around that. It's really annoying working with a different time range.
 
now, delread~ doesn't need that, you can work with the actual ms 
 
one way or another, it seems bad that both behave differently. I point they should work the same way and that vd~ behaves like delread~ in this case.
 
cheers
 
2015-09-22 15:34 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres <[email protected]>:
funny, I found out about the same thing and just posted on the thread that I'm reporting it as a bug
 
Well, my oppinion is that there might be some explanation why it happens, but also that both objects have bugs regarding the way they operate as they can't reach the delay limit when it comes to changing the block size, and they also have different limits... so both should be fixed to just be able to reach the specified maximum limit.
 
cheers 
 
2015-09-22 15:17 GMT-03:00 Christof Ressi <[email protected]>:
In the course of a discussion with Alexandre I ran into something really interesting: [delread~] and [vd~] have different delay limits! While [delread~] has always the buffersize minus the blocksize of the subpatch where it is located, the limit of [vd~] is 64 samples greater. Any explanations?
 
In my example patch, simply choose any blocksize, then set the delay time to maximum 100 (which is actually beyond the maximum), and then toggle between [vd~] and [delread~] to see the 64 samples difference...
 

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0.0398809 0.042946 0.0460111 0.0490763 0.0521395 0.0552028 0.0582661
0.0613294 0.0643903 0.0674513 0.0705123 0.0735732 0.0766314 0.0796896
0.0827478 0.085806 0.0888609 0.0919159 0.0949709 0.0980258 0.101077
0.104128 0.10718 0.110231 0.113278 0.116325 0.119372 0.122419 0.125462
0.128504 0.131547 0.134589 0.137627 0.140664 0.143702 0.146739 0.149771
0.152803 0.155835 0.158867 0.161893 0.164919 0.167945 0.170971 0.17399
0.17701 0.180029 0.183049 0.186061 0.189074 0.192087 0.195099 0.198104
0.20111 0.204115 0.20712 0.210118 0.213115 0.216113 0.21911 0.222099
0.225089 0.228078 0.231067 0.234048 0.237028 0.240009 0.242989 0.24596
0.248932 0.251903 0.254875 0.257836 0.260798 0.26376 0.266722 0.269673
0.272625 0.275577 0.278529 0.28147 0.284411 0.287352 0.290294 0.293224
0.296154 0.299085 0.302015 0.304934 0.307853 0.310772 0.313691 0.316598
0.319505 0.322412 0.325319 0.328214 0.331109 0.334004 0.336899 0.339781
0.342663 0.345545 0.348428 0.351297 0.354166 0.357035 0.359904 0.362759
0.365615 0.368471 0.371326 0.374168 0.377009 0.379851 0.382692 0.385519
0.388347 0.391174 0.394001 0.396813 0.399626 0.402438 0.40525 0.408047
0.410844 0.413641 0.416438 0.41922 0.422001 0.424782 0.427564 0.430329
0.433094 0.43586 0.438625 0.441374 0.444123 0.446871 0.44962 0.452352
0.455084 0.457816 0.460547 0.463262 0.465976 0.468691 0.471405 0.474102
0.476799 0.479496 0.482192 0.484871 0.48755 0.490228 0.492907 0.495567
0.498227 0.500887 0.503547 0.506188 0.508829 0.51147 0.514111 0.516733
0.519355 0.521976 0.524598 0.5272 0.529802 0.532404 0.535006 0.537588
0.54017 0.542752 0.545333 0.547895 0.550456 0.553017 0.555579 0.558119
0.560659 0.5632 0.56574 0.568259 0.570778 0.573297 0.575817 0.578314
0.580811 0.583309 0.585806 0.588282 0.590757 0.593232 0.595708 0.598161
0.600613 0.603066 0.605519 0.607949 0.610379 0.61281 0.61524 0.617647
0.620054 0.622461 0.624868 0.627251 0.629634 0.632018 0.634401 0.636761
0.63912 0.64148 0.64384 0.646175 0.64851 0.650845 0.653181 0.655491
0.657802 0.660113 0.662424 0.664709 0.666995 0.669281 0.671567 0.673827
0.676088 0.678348 0.680609 0.682844 0.685079 0.687313 0.689548 0.691757
0.693966 0.696175 0.698384 0.700566 0.702749 0.704932 0.707114 0.70927
0.711426 0.713582 0.715738 0.717867 0.719996 0.722125 0.724254 0.726356
0.728458 0.73056 0.732662 0.734736 0.73681 0.738884 0.740958 0.743005
0.745051 0.747097 0.749144 0.751162 0.75318 0.755198 0.757216 0.759206
0.761195 0.763185 0.765174 0.767135 0.769096 0.771057 0.773017 0.774949
0.776881 0.778812 0.780744 0.782646 0.784549 0.786451 0.788353 0.790226
0.792098 0.793971 0.795844 0.797686 0.799529 0.801372 0.803214 0.805027
0.806839 0.808651 0.810464 0.812246 0.814027 0.815809 0.817591 0.819342
0.821093 0.822845 0.824596 0.826316 0.828036 0.829756 0.831476 0.833165
0.834853 0.836542 0.838231 0.839888 0.841545 0.843202 0.84486 0.846485
0.84811 0.849736 0.851361 0.852955 0.854548 0.856141 0.857734 0.859295
0.860857 0.862418 0.863979 0.865507 0.867036 0.868564 0.870093 0.871588
0.873084 0.87458 0.876076 0.877538 0.879001 0.880464 0.881927 0.883356
0.884786 0.886215 0.887645 0.889041 0.890437 0.891833 0.893229 0.894592
0.895955 0.897317 0.89868 0.900008 0.901337 0.902666 0.903994 0.905289
0.906584 0.907878 0.909173 0.910433 0.911694 0.912954 0.914214 0.91544
0.916667 0.917893 0.919118 0.92031 0.921501 0.922693 0.923884 0.925041
0.926197 0.927354 0.92851 0.929632 0.930754 0.931875 0.932997 0.934084
0.93517 0.936257 0.937343 0.938394 0.939446 0.940497 0.941548 0.942564
0.94358 0.944595 0.945611 0.946591 0.947572 0.948552 0.949532 0.950476
0.951421 0.952365 0.95331 0.954218 0.955127 0.956035 0.956944 0.957816
0.958689 0.959561 0.960434 0.96127 0.962107 0.962943 0.963779;
#A 1000 0.964579 0.965379 0.96618 0.96698 0.967743 0.968507 0.969271
0.970034 0.970761 0.971489 0.972216 0.972943 0.973633 0.974324 0.975014
0.975705 0.976359 0.977012 0.977666 0.97832 0.978937 0.979554 0.980171
0.980788 0.981368 0.981948 0.982528 0.983108 0.983651 0.984194 0.984737
0.98528 0.985786 0.986292 0.986798 0.987303 0.987772 0.988241 0.98871
0.989178 0.98961 0.990041 0.990473 0.990904 0.991298 0.991693 0.992087
0.992481 0.992838 0.993195 0.993552 0.993908 0.994228 0.994547 0.994867
0.995186 0.995468 0.99575 0.996032 0.996314 0.996558 0.996803 0.997047
0.997291 0.997498 0.997705 0.997912 0.998119 0.998288 0.998457 0.998627
0.998796 0.998928 0.999059 0.999191 0.999323 0.999417 0.999511 0.999605
0.999699 0.999756 0.999812 0.999868 0.999925 0.999944 0.999962 0.999981
1 0.999981 0.999962 0.999944 0.999925 0.999868 0.999812 0.999755 0.999699
0.999605 0.999511 0.999417 0.999322 0.999191 0.999059 0.998927 0.998795
0.998626 0.998457 0.998287 0.998118 0.997911 0.997704 0.997497 0.99729
0.997046 0.996802 0.996557 0.996313 0.996031 0.995749 0.995467 0.995185
0.994865 0.994546 0.994226 0.993907 0.99355 0.993193 0.992836 0.99248
0.992085 0.991691 0.991297 0.990903 0.990471 0.99004 0.989608 0.989177
0.988708 0.988239 0.98777 0.987301 0.986795 0.98629 0.985784 0.985278
0.984735 0.984192 0.983649 0.983106 0.982525 0.981945 0.981365 0.980785
0.980168 0.979551 0.978934 0.978317 0.977664 0.97701 0.976356 0.975702
0.975012 0.974321 0.973631 0.97294 0.972213 0.971486 0.970758 0.970031
0.969268 0.968504 0.96774 0.966977 0.966176 0.965376 0.964576 0.963776
0.96294 0.962103 0.961267 0.960431 0.959558 0.958686 0.957813 0.95694
0.956032 0.955123 0.954215 0.953306 0.952362 0.951417 0.950473 0.949528
0.948548 0.947568 0.946588 0.945607 0.944592 0.943576 0.94256 0.941544
0.940493 0.939442 0.93839 0.937339 0.936253 0.935166 0.934079 0.932993
0.931871 0.93075 0.929628 0.928506 0.92735 0.926193 0.925036 0.92388
0.922688 0.921497 0.920305 0.919114 0.917888 0.916662 0.915436 0.91421
0.91295 0.911689 0.910429 0.909168 0.907874 0.906579 0.905284 0.90399
0.902661 0.901332 0.900003 0.898675 0.897312 0.89595 0.894587 0.893225
0.891828 0.890432 0.889036 0.88764 0.88621 0.884781 0.883351 0.881922
0.880459 0.878996 0.877533 0.87607 0.874575 0.873079 0.871583 0.870087
0.868559 0.86703 0.865502 0.863973 0.862412 0.860851 0.85929 0.857729
0.856136 0.854542 0.852949 0.851356 0.84973 0.848105 0.846479 0.844854
0.843197 0.84154 0.839882 0.838225 0.836536 0.834848 0.833159 0.83147
0.82975 0.82803 0.82631 0.82459 0.822839 0.821088 0.819336 0.817585
0.815803 0.814022 0.81224 0.810458 0.808645 0.806833 0.805021 0.803208
0.801365 0.799523 0.79768 0.795838 0.793965 0.792092 0.79022 0.788347
0.786445 0.784543 0.78264 0.780738 0.778806 0.776875 0.774943 0.773011
0.77105 0.76909 0.767129 0.765168 0.763178 0.761189 0.759199 0.75721
0.755192 0.753173 0.751155 0.749137 0.747091 0.745045 0.742998 0.740952
0.738878 0.736804 0.734729 0.732655 0.730553 0.728452 0.72635 0.724248
0.722119 0.71999 0.717861 0.715732 0.713576 0.71142 0.709264 0.707108
0.704925 0.702742 0.70056 0.698377 0.696168 0.693959 0.69175 0.689542
0.687307 0.685072 0.682837 0.680602 0.678342 0.676081 0.67382 0.67156
0.669274 0.666988 0.664703 0.662417 0.660106 0.657795 0.655485 0.653174
0.650839 0.648503 0.646168 0.643833 0.641473 0.639114 0.636754 0.634394
0.632011 0.629628 0.627244 0.624861 0.622454 0.620047 0.61764 0.615233
0.612803 0.610373 0.607942 0.605512 0.603059 0.600606 0.598153 0.595701
0.593225 0.59075 0.588275 0.585799 0.583302 0.580804 0.578307 0.57581
0.57329 0.570771 0.568252 0.565733 0.563193 0.560652 0.558112 0.555572
0.55301 0.550449 0.547888 0.545326 0.542745 0.540163 0.537581 0.534999
0.532397 0.529795 0.527193 0.524591 0.521969 0.519348 0.516726 0.514104
0.511463 0.508822 0.506181 0.50354 0.50088 0.49822 0.49556 0.4929 0.490221
0.487542 0.484864 0.482185 0.479488 0.476792 0.474095 0.471398 0.468684
0.465969 0.463255 0.46054 0.457808 0.455076 0.452344 0.449613 0.446864
0.444115 0.441366 0.438618 0.435852 0.433087 0.430322 0.427556 0.424775
0.421994 0.419212 0.416431 0.413634 0.410837 0.40804 0.405243 0.40243
0.399618 0.396806 0.393993 0.391166 0.388339 0.385512 0.382685 0.379843
0.377001 0.37416 0.371318 0.368463 0.365607 0.362752 0.359896 0.357027
0.354158 0.351289 0.34842 0.345538 0.342655 0.339773 0.336891 0.333996
0.331101 0.328206 0.325311 0.322404 0.319497 0.31659 0.313683 0.310764
0.307845 0.304926 0.302007 0.299077 0.296146 0.293216 0.290286 0.287344
0.284403 0.281462 0.278521 0.275569 0.272617 0.269665 0.266714 0.263752
0.26079 0.257828 0.254867 0.251895 0.248924 0.245952 0.242981 0.24
0.23702 0.234039 0.231059 0.22807 0.22508 0.222091 0.219102 0.216105
0.213107 0.21011 0.207112 0.204107 0.201102 0.198096 0.195091 0.192078
0.189066 0.186053 0.183041 0.180021 0.177002 0.173982 0.170963 0.167937
0.164911 0.161885 0.158859 0.155827 0.152795 0.149763 0.146731 0.143694
0.140656 0.137619 0.134581 0.131539 0.128496 0.125454 0.122411 0.119364
0.116317 0.11327 0.110223 0.107171 0.10412 0.101069 0.0980176 0.0949626
0.0919076 0.0888527 0.0857977 0.0827395 0.0796813 0.0766231 0.0735649
0.070504 0.067443 0.064382 0.0613211 0.0582578 0.0551945 0.0521312
0.049068 0.0460028 0.0429377 0.0398726 0.0368075 0.033741 0.0306745
0.027608 0.0245414 0.021474 0.0184066 0.0153392 0.0122717 0.00920383
0.00613594 0.00306804 1.48728e-007 -0.00306774 -0.00613564 -0.00920353
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#A 2000 -0.942561 -0.943577 -0.944593 -0.945608 -0.946589 -0.947569
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;
#X coords 0 1 2047 -1 200 140 1 0 0;
#X restore 742 366 graph;
#X obj 297 354 vd~ \$0-ring-buffer;
#X obj 296 394 tabwrite~ plot2;
#X text 339 234 delread~ and vd~ behave the same way;
#X text 330 268 2*pi delay = 11.6 ms (46.44 ms / 4);
#X text 468 289 (because with 4x oversampling 46.44 ms are 8192 samples
and not 2048 \, so you have to divide by 4);
#X connect 0 0 7 0;
#X connect 1 0 0 0;
#X connect 7 0 2 0;
#X connect 7 0 11 0;
#X connect 7 1 8 0;
#X connect 7 1 10 0;
#X connect 8 0 2 0;
#X connect 10 0 11 0;
#X restore 71 228 pd delread~;
#X connect 0 0 2 0;
#X connect 1 0 0 0;

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