Mike is perfectly right. The idea that complainers of violation of list etiquette are turning the list into hell is like accusing the police arresting criminals for being the source of crime. The accusation that the complaining of off topic message is the real problem after a thread on the topic is as absurd as it is annoying. We have lost several highly respected valuable members of PDML due to excessive OT messages; lets not loose more. Guess what; in the more violent moment of this list some have even complained about on topic messages! This is the ultimate absurd endpoint when OT goes out of hand. Its' pretty obvious to me at least that you will always get complains off topic messages when people have subscribed to a topic list. This is bleeding obvious. Its like going into a cinema and they show a different film than the one advertised. Of course people complain. The fact that minority may find it perfectly OK to see another movie has nothing whatsoever to do with it. If you don't want such complains don't post OT.
The reputation of Pentax discuss, and I'm speaking as someone who has been around since day one, grew from self restrain regarding OT messages and inflammatory posts. We were very aware of keeping the balance. The hell started (and always start) when the list get flooded with OT messages; when everything is allowed, flame throwing and name calling is also legal. To illustrate the situation once on this list: In the summer of '98 a character calling himself "The Who" broke into this list. He had problems expressing himself (he might even have been dyslectic), anyway he got nastier with every post and eventually gave this classic remark; "you sick as wholes (sic)". The point is that it took weeks before anyone responded with "Sorry, I can't take it anymore" and then started complaining about "Who". There was so much self restrain that people waited in the longest before complaining. Unfortunately, this eventually backfired. When the list got flooded with OT messages there was no mechanism that reacted immediately. Anyway, when the flame wars are at their worst, there is a following period that's quiet showing that everybody pretty much understands that OT out of hand simply doesn't work. And note that 90% of flame wars are due to OT messages like politics and taxes. I would like to state that OT volume is now manageable and much lower that at other periods in this list history. This is just my opinion but nobody, including me, has any right to define the level of OT thats tolerable. I do, however, believe that most people can tolerate a low level of OT messages so lets keep it that way. I see no reason to complain; I'm not doing that now either - I'm responding to a post that I find to be strictly on topic because its about this list. I would also strongly urge those who want to subscribe to an "everything" list to subscribe to such a list if they can find one. I don't expect it to exist for the simple reason that there are no one out there who is interested in everything. Posting off topic post is grossly inconsiderate; nothing less. Its a lack of respect for those hundreds subscribing to this list and the thousands reading it. We have only one thing in common and that's Pentax and photography. We will never reach a consensus of what level of off topic post is reasonable; therefore keep it to a minimum. On this list we have subscribers who tolerate 0% to 100% OT messages. However, the only common ground is the 0% which means 100% Pentax. I personally see no reason to complain to the OT situation right now but I see no reason anybody should tolerate getting their mailbox flooded with post they never asked for just because someone feel its their goddamn constitutional right to do so if it pleases them. I would also like to stress this isn't a place to "hang out". Its a mailing list where people have subscribed to a certain topic. If someone find the topic boring why subscribe? And if you are bored why not go somewhere else - like getting a life (sorry) instead of sending unsolicited mail to hundreds of people? I'm not saying this to attac anyone personally. I find it totally obvious; I really can't fathom the right to go to any mailing list to post whatever one likes. There must be a reason for having subject mailing list. If it was OK to post whatever we liked, all we ever needed was one mailing list, "the mailing list", where we could post Pentax, politics, whatever. I'm sorry but anarchy simply don't work. The fact that some subscribe to the digest doesn't necessarily mean that they don't want to participate in this list. Many who read the list from the net or receive the digest may do so because they don't want excessive OT mails in their in box. What makes Pentax discuss to a friendly place is that the subscribers show some restraints. It has work very well recently. You'll also see that the friendliness is correlative with the lack of off topic messages. The more OT messages the more flame wars. This happens in society as well; the more people breaking the law or regulation and generally do as they please without consideration to the fellow man, the less pleasant it becomes. I'm not saying anyone is posting excessive OT post right now. But lets keep it that way. The only sure way of turning this list into hell is posting whatever you like. This is obviously a Pentax list and nobody has any right whatsoever to turn it into something else. If somebody think they have, then they have unrealistic high thoughts about themselves and their opinion. BTW This has nothing to do with censorship but acting like a grown up. P�l >The problem with that Mike, is that those kind of responses very quickly >turn any list into hell. > >A few years back I was running my own newsserver. When there were a lot of >complaints about off topic posts, I checked. There were about ten times as >many posts complaining about off topic posts then there were off topic >posts. Who was wasting more bandwidth? If you don't like a topic, the way to >handle it is to ignore it. The only other workable way of dealing with them >is active censorship. > >The other thing is that the only way anything is going to turn into a long >thread is if people are interested in the subject. You may not be, but all >the people posting other than "get off the list" in the thread obviously >are. I remember that when you came on the list almost the first thing you >did is complain about off topic posts. You periodically bring it up again >and again. I guess this is getting personal because I for one am getting >awful tired of OT posts complaining of OT posts <g>. > >I seem to be one of the few who defend the list remaining open to whatever >the members of the list want to talk about. Maybe the others who want it >that way are tired of the endless demands of Digest Subscribers that the >list have nothing in it except what they want to read. I would say that the >digest is a convenience for people who only want to partially participate in >the list. It is after all a mailing list. But if everyone wants to change >the list to something other than the list I subscribed to and love, go >ahead. It will just no longer be a list where I want to hang out. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
