What he says. Do you need to gut a pig, or perform surgery? The former requires only a sharp knife, while the latter requires a scalpel.
I'm curious. Are you doing micromachining, by any chance? >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Samuel C. Cox Jr. >Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 2:14 PM >To: Protel EDA Discussion List >Subject: RE: [PEDA] Protel vs Expedition > >Your observations of Mentor's Expedition, is quite correct. >Protel is known for it's editors and interfaces or ease of use. >Expedition is the only other CAD system product that comes >close in terms of ease of use. Visula, Allegro, Pads, Pcad >all are cumbersome, confusing and painful to use compared to >Protel's 99se or DXP or Altium's Designer and Expedition. > >You are also correct when it comes to differential pair >routing with respect to Expedition Vs. Protel, and the >misunderstanding about Protel's level of accuracy. >00.00001 should be accurate enough, and will send most every >Fabrication house into a tale spin If they had to make a >substrate or PC board that accurate. > >Protel's Designer package has by far the mosts features per >dollar, over any other cad system, including Expedition. >The prices vary but in general I understand Allegro is 50-72K, >Zuken's products 36-45K, Expedition is 50-52k per seat, Pcad >10-12 , Pads 12-16k and Protel is 8-10k.. > >With Protel's product performing some 85-90% of all the >required or truly needed functions of even the most expensive >Cad product, that make it a clear winner from A price >performance perspective. > >I guess it becomes a question as to how important gate and pin >swapping and diff. Pair routing is for you as a user vs. what >your management is willing to pay. > >Is it worth the additional 40K to 62K difference? That is a >hard call.. >how many boards, how many differential pairs per hour etc.. >one method vs. >another.. > >Money is usually the great tie breaker. > >Best Wishes, > >Samuel Coulbourne Cox Jr. >PCB Design and Consulting Services >(408) 268-9779 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Behalf Of Brooks,Bill >Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:52 AM >To: 'Protel EDA Discussion List' >Subject: RE: [PEDA] Protel vs Expedition > >I have used Mentor Expedition, it does have some desirable >features, but like Abd says, the rare design might need the >features of Mentor, but the common design can be handled by >Protel admirably. > >Things that Protel can't do... automatic pin swapping and gate >swapping is probably the most glaring. It will do this in a >limited sense for folks who are doing embedded systems and >design the CPLD using Protel's software, but otherwise, the >hooks for doing true pin and gate swapping have been broken >since Protel 2.8 and still aren't fixed. But we are always >hopeful that Altium will do the development necessary to offer >that feature. > >The ability to interactively route lines in pairs and have the >router obey the design rules is another thing that Mentor does >well that Protel does not. Differential pairs has been a >needed improvement for some time as well. > > >Auto Routing is something Mentor bought... Veribest (used to >be Cadnetix) had the best router around and Mentor bought them >and incorporated their product into Mentor's product line and >it gave Mentor an edge where they were failing miserably >before... The price model they are using though is limiting >the customer base that they have to only large corporations >that do their own design in house and can afford the high >maintenance fees required to engineer the products that only >Mentor and Cadence can address at this time. > >Still I fear for their future in this tight market and like >Intergraph, Applicon, Calay, Telesys, and others, they may be >heading for the dinosaur status if they don't change their >business model. >But that's good for Altium, because there are more and more >folks looking for a more cost effective design system. > >Best regards, > > >Bill Brooks - KG6VVP >PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I. >Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 Datron World >Communications, Inc. >_______________________________________ >San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Communications >Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ >http://pcbwizards.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:10 AM >To: Protel EDA Discussion List >Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel vs Expedition > >At 11:47 PM 9/25/2005, yijie wrote: >>Hi >> >>I am a current user of Expedition, but is considering >purchasing Protel >too. >>But I am not sure if Protel can support me in the same manner as >>Expedition does. >> >>For example: >> >>1) Mentor can go up to 120 layers; Protel only 32 layers. > >That's not quite correct. Protel supports at least 70 layers. >32 layers is the positive copper limitation, you can also have >16 internal planes, 16 mechanical layers, plus the appropriate >top and bottom layers: solder mask, component legend, paste mask. > >I have *once* seen a design where the number of layers in >Protel was possibly a limitation, a 50-layer multilayer >ceramic module. However, using the full 50 layers was not >necessary, or was it desirable, the design was accomplished within 32. > >Unless what you are doing is very unusual, layer count will >not be a practical limitation. > >>2) Mentor can go down to micron units; Protel can only design in mils >units. > >This is not correct. The database unit in Protel is the >microinch, I think. Sometimes people read the specification >incorrectly, for it says 0.001 to 99999 mils. That was not a >slip, it is indeed 0.001 mil, or one-thousandth of a mil, one >millionth of an inch, 0.025 micron. The Protel resolution is >forty times higher than the reported resolution of Mentor >(unless Mentor can handle fractions of a micron, I don't know). > >>There maybe other Protel limitations, but I am only now aware >of these >>2. If anyone out there can tell me more about what Protel can do or >>can't do, this will help me in considering purchasing Protel >for my PCB >>design. >> >>I would appreciate if someone can offer me advantages of Protel that >>Expedition does not have. > >Protel is probably simpler and easier to use. This can >translate into faster design. Expedition is a more powerful >system, at least in some ways. It ought to be, it is far more >expensive. > >If you really want a comparison, do put some effort into >finding someone who is an expert user for both systems. >Someone who is an expert user with one system and who tries >another and finds it hard to use may just be experiencing the >difficulty of switching systems, for they will be organized >differently. > >Ultimately, you may want to try Protel; and when you do, >especially if you are familiar with another system, you will >almost certainly find yourself frustrated at times. While it >can be helpful to read the manual, engineers are often averse >to doing this, and sometimes the manual can itself be >frustrating, it is probably not organized to help you >translate Expedition procedures into Protel procedures. So in >addition to whatever you can find in the manual, if something >seems difficult or not well-implemented to you, ask here or on >the official Protel DXP forum (or whatever it is called now). >One question can save you hours of difficulty. > > > >____________________________________________________________ >You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > >To Post messages: >mailto:[email protected] > >Unsubscribe and Other Options: >http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > >Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): >http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > >Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): >http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >____________________________________________________________ >You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > >To Post messages: >mailto:[email protected] > >Unsubscribe and Other Options: >http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > >Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): >http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > >Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): >http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > >____________________________________________________________ >You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum > >To Post messages: >mailto:[email protected] > >Unsubscribe and Other Options: >http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com > >Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): >http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > >Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): >http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > ____________________________________________________________ You are subscribed to the PEDA discussion forum To Post messages: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe and Other Options: http://techservinc.com/mailman/listinfo/peda_techservinc.com Browse or Search Old Archives (2001-2004): http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] Browse or Search Current Archives (2004-Current): http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
