Just a side note. In the evolving thought of Triadic Philosophy there has always been a designation of the Third as action or expression. Action we can easily see as whatever we do physically or otherwise that we could call a true act. Expression reflects my sense that there is little difference between a statement, a writing a bit of information and an act. You make an expression. It involves intent and movement. It is obvious that the growing power of social movements is somewhat related to this line of thought. Even the consumption of the news which are signs that certainly produce action in on the five or six SM nodes that dominate is related. In my view words and the information they convey are the means by which we can more toward a democratic revolution worldwide based to some extent on the power of messaging. Of course Peirce mentioned memorial maxims which might be synonymized as a remembered tweet. This is possibly why I have sent most of the last three years building slowly on Twitter.
Books http://buff.ly/15GfdqU Art: http://buff.ly/1wXAxbl Gifts: http://buff.ly/1wXADj3 On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 5:01 AM, John Collier <[email protected]> wrote: > Søren, > > > > I have argued for some time that if Peircean thirds are irreducible they > must be emergent. I see no reason to doubt that. I think that Deacon’s > views are reductionist in some respects, though he is changing that slowly > (he quotes me on information in his second book, for example, but I don’t > think he absorbed the significance of the quote). I believe that > information is fundamental, and that it is physical, but that is not a > materialist view. > > > > I don’t see Stjernfelt the same way as you do. He doesn’t talk about > self-organization or emergence directly, but he does think that thirds are > irreducible. His arguments about the centrality of dicisigns don’t make a > lot of sense otherwise. But perhaps he is a more cryptic version of > Marcello Barbieri. I doubt that, though. > > > > Marcello is indeed very much upfront that he doesn’t see Piece as > scientific. I have argued that his views imply anti-reductionism, however, > in spite of himself. He denies that. Howard Pattee disappointed Marcello > when he said he took a basically antireductionist view on meaning. My views > are similar to Howard’s but I don’t like his epistemic and other cuts. I > see the problem they are supposed to address; I don’t think they are a > solution. Even if you take a non-materialist view (idealist or neutral) > there is still a problem of how local consciousness emerges. But I think > that from our previous discussions we might disagree about that last point. > > > > John Collier > > Professor Emeritus, UKZN > > http://web.ncf.ca/collier > > > > *From:* Søren Brier [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Tuesday, 29 December 2015 6:50 PM > *To:* John Collier; Stephen C. Rose; Peirce List > *Subject:* SV: [PEIRCE-L] Triadic Philosophy -- Sign > > > > Dear John and Stephen > > > > I think there is an ontological difference between your views as Deacon > and to a certain degree Stjernfelt’ s views are based on ,to me unclear > “scientific worldviews”, which in the end means physicalism. None of them > has taken a clear opposition to physicalism. They are not mechanical > materialist but believe in thermodynamic self-organization through > Prigogine’s non-equilibrium thermodynamics. Deacon is close to general > system theory but does not accept it openly probably because Bertalanffy > was an organicist and therefore not compatible with the physicalist > scientific worldview. Never the less he endorse a developmental theory > combined with evolution theory from matter, over objective information to > icons. Stuart Kaufmann seems also to attempt to make signs emerge from a > physicalist worldview. Stjernfelt seem to run a standard scientific > ontology parallel with a Peircean semiotic as far as I can read, never > going into self-organization and theories of emergence. But in my view a > Peircean icon does not work without his whole pragmaticist philosophy with > its foundation in his hylozoist, thycistic ontology, combined with his > aesthetics, ethics and semiotic logic as the base of his phaneroscopic > epistemology. There are a lot of attempts to use Peirce’s semiotics and > pragmaticism on other philosophical foundations than the one he > painstakingly developed over his life. One of the more obvious is > Barbieri’s codebiology, but he is so honest and explicit in his > argumentation that it is possible to discuss it, as I have done in the > attached article from *Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology*. Am > I wrong? > > > > Best > > Søren > > > > > > *Fra:* John Collier [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] > *Sendt:* 29. december 2015 04:13 > *Til:* Stephen C. Rose; Peirce List > *Emne:* RE: [PEIRCE-L] Triadic Philosophy -- Sign > > > > Stephen, List, > > > > That is similar to Terry Deacon’s view in *The Symbolic Species* (1997), > and also later in *Incomplete Nature* (2012). He argues that the > evolution of symbols starts with icons, icons combine to form indexes, and > we end up with, in humans, full symbols. Frederick Stjernflelt takes issue > with this (*Diagrammatology*, chapter 11, 2007; *Natural Propositions*, > chapter 6, 2014), arguing that dicisigns can be found, and are needed, > right back to the beginning of signs in biology, so that (proto)symbolic > symbols and arguments as well are original, both factually and as a > requirement for understanding how signs evolved. I am currently inclined to > agree with Stjernfelt (Collier, 2014, *Signs without minds*. V. Romanini, > E. Fernández (eds.), Peirce and Biosemiotics, Biosemiotics 11), though I > didn’t know about his work at the time. > > > > John Collier > > Professor Emeritus, UKZN > > http://web.ncf.ca/collier > > > > *From:* Stephen C. Rose [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 29 December 2015 3:47 AM > *To:* Peirce List > *Subject:* [PEIRCE-L] Triadic Philosophy -- Sign > > > > I see a sign as something that emerges in the vague penumbra called First > or by me Reality. It is named and acquires identity rising from its primal > being. It naturally encounters a blunt index of truths which I call Ethics > (Second) and is composed of Values (not virtues) and from there it passes > through a the doorway to the Third which I call Aesthetics and understand > to be the point at which the consideration, which this is, evolves into > expression and action. In terms of Peirce's maxim this Third is the the > substance of the matter. When I see folk discussing signs and firsts and > seconds and thirds in highly complex ways I do not think I am thereby > missing the possibilities of Triadic thought. I feel its possibilities lie > in a little leap from the point at which Peirce implies that logic might > lead to good results to a point at which Triadic thinking actually does > lead to such results. I am coming to feel that Peirce's thought is a mite > confused at the point of getting grounded and that categories became for > him a sort of detour from a a more frontal effort to state the implications > of his thought. Fortunately he left a good deal to go on. > > > Books http://buff.ly/15GfdqU >
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