Helmut - no the relation between the Representamen and the Object
can be in ANY of the three modes [1stness, 2ndness, 3rdness]. Same
with the Representamen-in-itself. And the relation between the
Representamen and the Interpretant can also be in any of the 2 modes.
Check the ten sign classes . 2.256. See also 8.335.
The full triad is the Sign [capital S] - and this full triad must be
O-R-I.
Edwina
On Sun 04/02/18 2:51 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent:
Edwina, isn´t mediation (thirdness) a matter of the interpretant
(thirdness), not the representamen? Well, I see representamen,
object, interpretant as 1ns, 2ns, 3ns, which perhaps you don´t. Ok,
representamen is also the sign, which is thirdness, because it
includes all. This is difficult. Maybe the solution lies in the
semiosis, when the interpretant (3ns) becomes a representamen (1ns)
again? I don´t know. Have to ponder, get back later. Or do you have
an idea what I am missing? Best, Helmut 04. Februar 2018 um 20:19
Uhr
Von: "Edwina Taborsky"
Helmut - I'll disagree. You are missing the triadic semiosic process
of O-R-I. You are missing the process of mediation between the Object
and the Interpretant - which is the action carried out by the
Representamen.
Therefore - the Representamen is not 'the loud sound' -
Edwina
On Sun 04/02/18 2:13 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent:
Jon, Edwina, List, I think: - The representamen is the loud sound, and
everything connected with it in the situation (as the representamen is
also the sign, so including all following points too) - The dynamical
object is that, what the bird initially feels to be the source of the
loud sound, as this (imaginary) source really (not imaginary) is, and
as it is in the concepts of all other birds and all other creatures,
- The immediate object is what is initially arisen (imagined) in the
bird´s mind by the loud sound for being its source, - The immediate
interpretant is the reason the bird assumes having to fly away, - The
dynamical interpretant is really avoiding the (still imaginary) danger
by flying away, - The final interpretant is the real benefit achieved
by the bird, defined by what would really have happened if the bird
had not flown away. This was a quick shot. Now I guess, maybe there
is a pattern of combinations of "imaginary" and "real"... Best,
Helmut 02. Februar 2018 um 17:25 Uhr
Von: "Jon Alan Schmidt"
Edwina, List: I has been a pleasant (and presumably mutual)
surprise to discover that, at least in the specific example of a bird
fleeing upon hearing a loud sound, our analyses of the semiosis
involved are substantially in agreement after all.
*The Dynamic Object (DO) is the loud sound itself.
*The Immediate Object (IO) is the bird's sensation of the loud
sound.
*The Representamen (R) is, or at least includes, the bird's
neural pattern that stands for the loud sound.
*The Immediate Interpretant (II) is the range of possible effects
of this neural pattern on the bird.
*The Dynamic Interpretant (DI) is the actual effect of this
neural pattern on the bird, which is its flight.
What remains unresolved is the "location" of the bird's collateral
experience and habits of interpretation; hence the new subject line.
This is an aspect of Peirce's overall semeiotic that I have been
wondering about for quite some time. You place them within (or as)
the R, but I am still having a hard time seeing it that way in light
of Peirce's definition (in multiple places) of the R as that which
stands for the Object to the Interpretant. My sense is that these
elements are instead somehow bound up in what it means for the Object
to determine the Sign to determine the Interpretant; i.e., collateral
experience is what enables the bird to "recognize" its sensation as
corresponding to the loud sound, while a habit of
interpretation--whether instinctive, learned, or both--is what
prompts the bird's response to be flight, rather than any of the
other possible effects. One alternative is to designate the habit
of interpretation as the one correlate that is missing above--the
Final Interpretant (FI). Up until now, my working hypothesis has
been that the FI is defined as the habit of
feeling/action/thought--i.e., the habit of interpretation--that the
Sign would produce. However, I had in mind the habit that the
Receiver (in this case, the bird) would develop after sufficient
repetition of the same Representamen (in this case, the neural
pattern that stands for the loud sound). I am starting to wonder if
instead we should define the FI as the general tendency that
governs (but does not mechanically dictate) which actual DI is
produced by a particular Sign from among the various possibilities
that correspond to its II. The FI would then be the cumulative
effect of all previous instances of semiosis that are somehow
relevant to this particular encounter with this particular Sign. I
will stop there and ask again--what do you think? Feedback from
others would also be very welcome. Thanks, Jon S.
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:
Jon - with regard to the example in section 3.
I maintain that the Representamen is the bird's knowledge base. This
is not just its individual collateral experience but also the
biological 'habits' or laws of its species. So, this Representamen
includes the bird's individual life experiences plus its own
species-specific 'internal awareness of the sound - the as you say,
instinctive 'neural pattern that enables the bird to 'recognize the
loud sound'...'. So- to me, the Representamen is both the biological
habits AND the living experience habits.
The II - I agree - the range of possible effects..of this neural
pattern..
And the DI - is flight.
Edwina
On Thu 01/02/18 7:49 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com
sent: Edwina, List: 1. Again, I am still sorting out what the IO
is, beyond being the Object as represented in the Sign. I have not
said anything to suggest that it is "mechanical." 2. Again, we do
not disagree about this at all. 3. Okay, I understand now that you
are treating the loud sound--the physical waves of compression and
decompression propagating through the air--as the DO. Let us take
the bird's flight as the DI, so that we do not get sidetracked in
"the mental workings of the human brain." That narrows our different
analyses to the Sign itself as the (internal) triad of IO-R-II. In
this specific case, I am even willing to concede that the IO can be
identified as the impinging of the sound waves on the bird's ears
and/or the resulting nerve impulses, although I still maintain that
the IO is not defined as "sensate data," and would not be "sensate
data" for other kinds of Signs. That leaves the R and the II. You
say that the R is the bird's "knowledge base," which I characterize
instead as its collateral experience ; and that the II is the bird's
"internal awareness" of the sound. For me, the latter is the R;
presumably the (largely instinctive) neural pattern that stands for
the loud sound within the bird. As for the II, as usual I see it as
the range of possible effects that this neural pattern may have on
the bird, one of which is obviously the flight that actually results
from it (DI). In other words, for this particular example--in which
all of the correlates are Existents (2ns), which I suspect helps
minimize the discrepancies--it looks to me like the only difference
in our analyses is that your R is my collateral experience, your II
is my R, and my II is something that you do not include, at least not
explicitly. What do you think? Thanks, Jon S. On Thu,
Feb 1, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:
Jon
1. You still haven't explained' what is the IO. It surely can't be
just a mechanical 'site' within the Sign. It has to have some
informational content.
2. Peirce's objective idealism is that 'the one intelligible theory
of the universe is that of objective idealism, that matter is effete
mind, inveterate habits becoming physical laws'. 6.25. That is -
Mind-as-Matter.
"all mind more or less partakes of the nature of matter'. 6.268
And - "the one original law [is] the recognized law of mind the law
of association, of which the laws of matter are..mere special
results' 6.277.
3. The loud sound - is the Dynamic Object. This loud sound has its
own Dynamic Object[s] [the tree and the wind]...But, to the human,
the cat, the bird, who are each full Signs in themselves...their
interaction with the external world is just: the loud sound. They
are affected by this sound and must interpret it. The human, the cat,
and the bird are NOT themselves, Signs of that loud sound! They simply
receive it..and must interpret it. ..and as such, are affected by it;
their knowledge base [Representamen] will change...and thus, as a
Sign, they too change.
Edwina
On Thu 01/02/18 5:25 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com
sent: Edwina, List: 1. Again, I have been trying to sort out what
I think the IO is throughout this thread; but where did Peirce ever
define it as "sensate data"? 2. Peirce's stated view was "that
matter is effete mind" (CP 6.25, EP 1:293; 1891), not the other way
around. Of course, he later famously said that "the entire
universe--not merely the universe of existents, but all that wider
universe, embracing the universe of existents as a part, the universe
which we are all accustomed to refer to as 'the truth'--that all this
universe is perfused with signs, if it is not composed exclusively of
signs" (CP 5.448n1, EP 2:394; 1906). So we actually do not disagree
about this at all. 4. Yes, the Receiver is a Sign, but not the
Sign that I thought we were discussing--the loud sound. I see now
that this may be the very root of our overall disconnect. You seem
to be suggesting that the loud sound is the Dynamic Object of the
human, the cat, and the bird, each of which is a Sign of that loud
sound. That is not consistent with my understanding of Peirce's
terminology at all. Again, just to be clear--I emphatically do not
"confine semiosis to the mental workings of the human brain," any
more than you do. I just analyze it much differently than you do.
Regards, Jon S. On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Edwina
Taborsky wrote:
Jon - we are simply light-years apart..
1] What do you think the IO is - if not sensate data received from
the external world?
2] You and I have a totally different view of 'what is a Sign'. As
I've said - I follow Peirce's view that 'Mind is Matter' - and that
this matter is, as a whole, a Sign. The whole biochemical unit - is a
sign. An atom, a molecule - is a Sign. It exists as such in
interaction with other Signs, i.e., other atoms, other molecules.
What do you think a Sign is - merely a mental concept in someone's
mind?
The bird is a whole Sign - and is receiving sensate data from
another Sign...let's say...from another bird.
3] I am not going to get into a discussion of reality vs
existentiality. The Representamen, as a qualisign, a sinsign, a
legisign, does not exist per se, separately. It exists as such -
within the triad of the whole Sign. This is basic to Peirce and
Aristotle.
4] The Receiver is a Sign! The bird, as a whole, is a Sign. The
human, as a whole, is a Sign. And - to be a Sign, it is always
receiving and sending information to other Signs.
You confine semiosis to the mental workings of the human brain. I
view semiosis as basic within all matter...Mind-is-Matter. Peirce was
quite specific - that Mind functions within all matter.
So- quite frankly- we have very little in common about these issues.
Edwina
On Thu 01/02/18 4:37 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com
sent: Edwina, List: Again, my reading of Peirce is very different
from yours. 1. If you have quotes where he explicitly defined the
Immediate Object to be "sensate data," I would like to see them; I
did not find any in CP or EP. This whole thread is about trying to
get a better handle on what the IO is. 2. The Sign must be in a
relation with the DO, which is external to it; the DO is not part of
the Sign. I was sure that we agreed on that, as long as your
(correct) emphasis on the (necessarily) interactive nature of
semiosis is kept firmly in view. What you call "a knowledge base" is
not the Representamen, it is the result of collateral experience.
Here you call the bird "the whole Sign," but before you called it the
"Receiver" of the Sign; which is it? 3. There are Real Qualisigns
and Legisigns, but none of them exist, except as Sinsigns (replicas).
Likewise, all of the other five correlates and four relations only
exist, strictly speaking, when they are Existents (2ns), not when
they are Possibles (1ns) or Necessitants (3ns); but those in the
latter two Universes can nevertheless be Real. 5. There is no
"reduction" here, just faithfulness to Peirce's own terminology. As
far as I know, he never referred to the six correlates themselves as
"relations," only the four relations that the Sign has to the three
external correlates (DO, DI, FI). 6. Again, the Representamen is
internal to the Sign, not to the Receiver. Now, some Signs are
internal to the Receiver--Interpretant Signs and thought-Signs being
obvious examples. Sensing the sound waves in your body is a Dynamic
Interpretant--an actual effect that an external Sign (the loud
sound) produces. Your thoughts about this sensation are subsequent
Signs. Regards, Jon S. On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 1:55
PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:
Jon - we'll have to 'agree to disagree'. There is simply a HUGE gap
between your view and mine - and an even bigger gap between my view
and that of Gary F.
1. I can come up with quotes as well....and your use of 'represented
in the sign' doesn't explain what this means. What do you think the IO
is?
2. No - I told you that the Sign must include the Dynamic Object. I
don't keep archives as you do and so can't check - but to have the
Sign as strictly and only internal and subjective - doesn't make any
sense. The whole point of semiosis - is that it is interactive,
relational. Not just subjective - which would be nominalistic. What I
agreed to was that there WAS a basic internal triad [since some people
reject even the IO and the II] - but - there need not be a DI. But
there has to be a DO - The Sign is not an isolate subjective 'thing'
or 'event'. It is interactional.
I don't agree with your diagrams of the IO as the 'site' on the Sign
where the DO bonds to it. To me - that doesn't make any sense. That
almost sounds as if 'the IO site already exists within the
'Sign'..and the DO simply 'bonds/attaches to it! That doesn't make
sense to me.
My diagram is that the whole Sign [let's say a bird] - carries
within it a knowledge base [physiological, mental]..known as the
Representamen. When a Dynamic Object, which is an external
Sign/Mind-as-Matter interacts with this Bird/Sign/Mind-as-Matter....
the sensate data from that DO enters the body/mind of the bird. That
information is the IO. The Representamen acts on this data..and
transforms it into an Interpretation [II and DI].
3. The Sign is NOT just the Representamen! [qualisign, sinsign,
legisign!!]. It's the whole triad! Therefore, it does exist -
otherwise it wouldn't be a Sign.
5] I don't agree with your reduction of the phases of semiosis to
'correlates'. They are vital components of the whole semiosic
process. Each functions within a Relation. That is, each can
interact within a different categorical mode - though there are
restrictions in their 'whole set of relations'.
6 The external loud sound can hardly be the Representamen!!! The
Representamen is INTERNAL - and this loud sound is coming from an
external source! Plus, the Representamen has the function of
mediation between the O and the I.
The falling of the oak tree is the final - the FI; all that I get -
is the DO, which is the loud sound. I have no idea what it is.
And the sensate effect of this loud sound - is the Immediate Object.
I can 'feel' the sound waves in my body. Then, my body, via its
physiological and mental Representamen capacities - must 'interpret'
this. ..to.., as an II - first - that it's a loud force external to
me and also, that it's something outside.
7. You say 'internal to the Sign' - not internal to the receiver.
But where is the sign?
Edwina
On Thu 01/02/18 2:11 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com
sent: Edwina, List: As you know, my reading of Peirce is very
different from yours, but hopefully we can engage in some
constructive dialogue anyway. 1. Here are three quotes where
Peirce explicitly defined the Immediate Object to be the Object as it
is represented in the Sign. "… there are two aspects of the object:
1. The object as acting on the sign. That is called the real object.
2. The object as represented in the sign, or the immediate object "
(R 1334:53; 1905). "... one must distinguish the Object as it is
represented, which is called the Immediate Object, from the Object as
it is in itself" (R 793:14; 1906). "We must distinguish between the
Immediate Object,--i.e., the Object as represented in the sign,--and
the Real (no, because perhaps the Object is altogether fictive, I
must choose a different term; therefore:), say rather the Dynamical
Object ..." (EP 2:498; 1909). On the other hand, I am not aware of
any passage where Peirce explicitly defined the Immediate Object to be
"sensate data." 2. You agreed with me about this a little less than
a year ago; has something changed? I wrote, "We now agree that the
Sign is a triad in the sense that the Immediate Object and
Immediate Interpretant are internal to it. What remains is
whether the Dynamic Object and the Dynamic Interpretant are also
parts of the Sign as a single triad , or distinct correlates of a
triadic relation ... both the (Dynamic) Object and (Dynamic)
Interpretant are distinct Subjects that are independent of
the Sign ... the Object is 'something else' than the Sign, while the
Interpretant is the 'effect' of the Sign; so again, it strikes me as
saying that they are separate ." You replied, "I would agree that
the internal triad is thus basic - and the external parts could be
called correlates - and are not necessarily found at the same time."
The necessity of the Dynamic Object to determine the Sign has never
been at issue between us, nor the fundamentally interactive nature of
semiosis in general. Diagrammatically, I think of the Immediate
Object as something like the site on the Sign where the Dynamic
Object "bonds" to it, and the Immediate Interpretant as the site on
the Sign where the Dynamic Interpretant "bonds" to it. 3&4. I tend
to treat the Sign as an individual site/node for abstract analytical
purposes, but Gary R.'s concrete thought experiments are helping me
to recognize some of the limitations of that approach. I am
uncomfortable with your use of "existential" in this context, since
only Sinsigns strictly exist; that is why Qualisigns and Legisigns
must be embodied as Sinsigns in order to act as Signs (CP
2.244-246, EP 2:291; 1903). A word is not only a Sign as a Token
(Sinsign), it is also a Sign as a Type (Legisign)--a general whose
Reality is not confined to its actual instantiations, but includes
the inexhaustible continuum of its potential instantiations. 5.
Dynamic Object, Immediate Object, Representamen, Immediate
Interpretant, Dynamic Interpretant, and Final Interpretant are
Peirce's terms for six correlates or subjects that are involved in
semiosis, not six relations. He identified four relations, each
including the Sign itself--its dyadic relations to the Dynamic
Object, Dynamic Interpretant, and Final Interpretant; and its triadic
relation to the Dynamic Object and Final Interpretant. Together these
correspond to the ten trichotomies of his 1908 Sign classification (CP
1.342-376, EP 2:478-490). There are no distinct relations of the
Sign to its Immediate Object and Immediate Interpretant, because
those are both parts of the Sign itself. 6. We agree that every
Sign-action must have at least the first four correlates, although we
define them quite differently. In your example, given your
characterization of several Dynamic Interpretants, I am inclined to
identify the loud sound as the Representamen, the falling of the oak
tree as the Dynamic Object, and the entire range of possible effects
of the loud sound on anything and everything as the Immediate
Interpretant. As such, these correlates are the same for the
human, the cat, and the bird; only their Dynamic Interpretants are
different, as a result of the different habits of interpretation that
they have previously developed. I understand the Immediate Object
and Immediate Interpretant to be internal to the Sign , not internal
to the Receiver ; in particular, "'It is usual and proper to
distinguish two Objects of a Sign, the Mediate without, and the
Immediate within the Sign" (EP 2:480; 1908). However, this thread
has called my attention to the difficulty of clarifying exactly what
it means for the Immediate Object to be "internal to the Sign," and I
find myself unsure about "where to locate it" in this case.
Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Professional
Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [1] - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
[2] On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:
List - I've kept out of this baffling exchange because ...it was too
baffling. I had and have no idea what Gary F and Jon AS are talking
about. I'll just try to clear up a few things - as I see them.
1. The Immediate Object is not the 'Object as it is represented in
the Sign'. The IO is the sensate data before
'representation/interpretation'.
2. I did not and do not agree that the Sign is a 'triad of the
Immediate Object/Representamen/Immediate Interpretant'. That would
make the Sign a strictly INTERNAL proposition - and the whole nature
of the Sign [capital S] is that it is existential and not just
subjective. The external Dynamic Object MUST be part of this semiosic
process.
3. I'll try to explain my understanding. I totally reject Gary F's
confinement of the term 'sign' to the single site/node ..Semiosis is
a complex process; it is an action, a process - and consists of
Relations between 'existential units'...which are constantly
interacting informationally. There are a number of steps within the
Sign. We could best understand the Sign as a syllogism - but - I
won't get into that.
4. We should first understand that semiosis is an interaction
between - let's say for simplicity, two 'existential units' [though
in reality, the interactions and units are without count]. Each
unit, as existential, will be itself a Sign.
What is a Sign? It is an existential form of Mind-as-Matter. So, a
stone, a leaf, a plant, an insect, a tree, a human, a word....these
are all Signs. They are all existential forms of Mind-as-Matter. They
are also all constantly in semiosic interaction with other Signs. If
there is no such interaction - then, they cease to exist as Signs, as
Mind-as-Matter.
5. The process of this semiosic interaction is necessarily complex.
Why? Because such complexity enables the generation of diverse forms
of new Signs/Mind-as-Matter.
The semiosic interaction is: - in its full stage - made up of 6
interactive phases.
Dynamic Object- Immediate Object- Representamen-Immediate
Interpretant-Dynamic Interpretant-Final Interpretant.
Each interaction is a Relation, ..and can be in any one of the three
categorical modes of Firstness; Secondness; Thirdness. I won't get
into that.
6. The basic semiosic interaction - known as The Sign is:
O-R-I...but we must break this down into..
DO-IO-R-II. Note- we MUST have two existences, two units, two
Mind-as-Matter units in the semiosic situation. The external
'thing'...and..the Receiver..
An example:
DO- a loud sound. Now - this loud sound...enters the 'sensual
awareness' of three Receivers. A human being, a cat, a bird
IO - this is the sensate data that is subjective, it is INTERNAL to
each of the three Receivers. Each of them 'hears' or receives this
loud sound in a different way.
R - this is their knowledge base. It mediates the data from the
IO...and, according to each different capacity, will come up with and
Interpretation....[Note - this is what Gary F refers to as the sign,
and this, I suggest, ignores that the Sign is the whole complex
process, not just one Relation].
II - this is their subjective, INTERNAL 'awareness' of that loud
sound. The human will be physically aware that there is some loud
force outside of themselves. The cat..will be equally
aware...but..might feel it even in their body. Same with the bird.
DI- here, at this phase, the human will articulate: Oh - that old
Oak tree finally fell. The cat will watch the human to see if what it
heard/felt should be interpreted as alarm. The bird's interpretant is:
Flee.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll just note that the Representamen - which can be in any
categorical mode, is a powerful, powerful mediative force. Since it
can be in 1-1 [Pure Firstness] or 2-2 , or 2-1; or 3-3, or 3-1, or
3-2.....then, it can add and transform to the sensate data of that
Immediate Object - to produce a completely novel Interpretant.
Edwina -----------------------------
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