Edwina, List:

Just a few comments--not to start another argument, just to highlight more
differences in our views that are becoming apparent.

The loud sound involves the behavior of matter, which is effete mind, and
mediates between the falling tree and the fleeing bird; so I am still not
seeing why it could not be a Representamen if the scenario is analyzed in a
certain way.  Are you positing some kind of *discontinuity *in the semiosis
during the chain of events from the falling of the tree, to the loud sound
that it causes, to the impinging of the propagating sound waves on the
bird, to its resulting neural pattern, to its flight?  Otherwise, it seems
to me that *each *of these could be analyzed as a Representamen--even the
bird's flight, which might signal to another bird (say, a deaf one) that it
should flee, as well.

As I have stated a couple of times before, I consider our example to be one
in which all of the correlates are Existents (2ns); i.e., per the 1903 Sign
classification, it is an Indexical Sinsign, although I am inclined to agree
that it is Rhematic, rather than Dicent.  The bird's
reaction/interpretation of the Sign is the *individual *action of flight;
the *habit *was already in place before the loud sound ever happened.


Jon S.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca> wrote:

> 1]Jon - to me, the Representamen is an act of mediation; it transforms
> the data from the IO [Immediate Object] into an Interpretation...
> So- to me, the loud sound is incoming sensate data; It doesn't act
> as MIND, transforming this sound into some interpretation of it.
> I am, in the above, assuming that the Representamen is in a mode of
> Thirdness [Mind]. For example, as
> O-R-I or a Rhematic Indexical Legisign, an individual interpretation of
> local stimuli as referenced to a general rule.
> So- the bird's reaction/interpretation of the sound..is the habit of
> flight.
> But- the Representamen can be in other modes.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------
> 2] Now..let's see..what if it's instead in a mode of Firstness.
> this would have the triad [O-R-I] as a Rhematic Iconic Qualisign- where
> all three parts of the Sign are in a mode of Firstness. Peirce's example
> was that 'feeling of redness'; this example would be a feeling of sound. A
> local and internal non-interpreted, non-describe individual state.
> 3] What if the Representamen were in a mode of Secondness. There are three
> classes where the R is in a mode of Secondness:
> O-R-I   or 1-2-1 A Rhematic Iconic Sinsign. An individual diagram; an
> iconic non-analyzed description of a sensation
> O-R-I or 2-2-1  A Rhematic Indexical Sinsign .  A spontaneous cry. a local
> non-intentional reaction to a local and direct indexical stimuli.
> O-R-I or 2-2-2- a Dicent Indexical Sinsign; a mechanical reaction.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> So - in the above - I could see that the Representamen could be in a mode
> of Secondness..as a Rhematic Indexical Sinsign.
> ---------------------------
> But- in none of the above - do I define the loud sound as the
> Representamen, since I maintain that its role is mediation.
> Edwina
> On Sun 04/02/18 7:13 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent:
> Edwina, List:
> Yes, again, we have very different definitions of "Representamen."  Just
> to clarify--are you saying that in your view, the loud sound cannot be
> treated as the Representamen in any semiotic analysis of this scenario?
> If so, why not?
> Thanks,
> Jon S.
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca>
> wrote:
>> I would disagree. The falling of the tree is a full Sign [O-R-I]....with
>> the actual fall as the Dynamic Interpretant. The wind-taking-down-the-tree
>> might by a Dynamic Object to the tree...which then reacts by falling [DI].
>> But within the bird, what affects the senses of the bird - is that loud
>> sound. That is the external Dynamic Object to that situation. The Immediate
>> Object is whatever sensual data is felt within the bird from that sound.
>> The Representamen is a process of mediating this sensate data into an
>> interpretation [II and DI].
>> Edwina
>> On Sun 04/02/18 4:08 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent:
>> Helmut, List:
>> In my view, we can indeed take the loud sound to be the Representamen, as
>> I initially suggested--noting again that my definition differs
>> significantly from Edwina's.  This leads to a different analysis in which
>> the Dynamic Object is the falling of the tree that causes the sound,
>> with the other terms reassigned accordingly.  Sign-action is mediation,
>> even though the Sign itself is indeed the First Correlate of the genuine
>> triadic relation that has the Object as its Second Correlate and the
>> Interpretant as its Third Correlate (cf. EP 2:290; 1903).
>> Regards,
>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
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