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}The key action of semiosis that I am examining takes place within
the bird....the IO-Representamen-II.

        A Representamen is always internal to the triad. 

        The loud sound is both the Dynamic Object - which causes the bird to
react and..a version of that loud sound within the bird's neurological
system is the IO.

        What mediates between the tree and the bird? The action of semiosis:
which is triadic - : O-R-I, or DO-IO-R-II-DI.

        The sound - which has affected the bird - is the Dynamic Object. 

        The Representamen is the action of mediation within the Triad; it
doesn't stand alone. 


        A deaf bird would see the other bird flee; that would be the DO to
that deaf bird- the bird's flight.

        Then, the deaf bird's IO would be its neurological impression of
that other flight; mediated by its Representamen of knowledge of that
adrenalin its own II and then - its own DI or flight.

 No - I don't consider that the Representamen in these 'bird cases'
is in a mode of Secondness. It's in a mode of Thirdness - the
knowledge base, both biological and learned, of that bird.

 On Sun 04/02/18  8:42 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt
 Edwina, List:
 Just a few comments--not to start another argument, just to
highlight more differences in our views that are becoming apparent.
 The loud sound involves the behavior of matter, which is effete
mind, and mediates between the falling tree and the fleeing bird; so
I am still not seeing why it could not be a Representamen if the
scenario is analyzed in a certain way.  Are you positing some kind of
discontinuity in the semiosis during the chain of events from the
falling of the tree, to the loud sound that it causes, to the
impinging of the propagating sound waves on the bird, to its
resulting neural pattern, to its flight?  Otherwise, it seems to me
that  each of these could be analyzed as a Representamen--even the
bird's flight, which might signal to another bird (say, a deaf one)
that it should flee, as well.
 As I have stated a couple of times before, I consider our example to
be one in which all of the correlates are Existents (2ns); i.e., per
the 1903 Sign classification, it is an Indexical Sinsign, although I
am inclined to agree that it is Rhematic, rather than Dicent.  The
bird's reaction/interpretation of the Sign is the  individual action
of flight; the habit was already in place before the loud sound ever
 Jon S. 
 On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Edwina Taborsky  wrote:
        1]Jon - to me, the Representamen is an act of mediation; it
transforms the data from the IO [Immediate Object] into an

        So- to me, the loud sound is incoming sensate data; It doesn't act
as MIND, transforming this sound into some interpretation of it.

        I am, in the above, assuming that the Representamen is in a mode of
Thirdness [Mind]. For example, as

        O-R-I or a Rhematic Indexical Legisign, an individual interpretation
of local stimuli as referenced to a general rule. 

        So- the bird's reaction/interpretation of the the habit of

        But- the Representamen can be in other modes.

        2] Now..let's see..what if it's instead in a mode of Firstness.

        this would have the triad [O-R-I] as a Rhematic Iconic Qualisign-
where all three parts of the Sign are in a mode of Firstness.
Peirce's example was that 'feeling of redness'; this example would be
a feeling of sound. A local and internal non-interpreted, non-describe
individual state. 

        3] What if the Representamen were in a mode of Secondness. There are
three classes where the R is in a mode of Secondness:

        O-R-I   or 1-2-1 A Rhematic Iconic Sinsign. An individual diagram;
an iconic non-analyzed description of a sensation

        O-R-I or 2-2-1  A Rhematic Indexical Sinsign .  A spontaneous cry. a
local non-intentional reaction to a local and direct indexical

        O-R-I or 2-2-2- a Dicent Indexical Sinsign; a mechanical reaction. 


        So - in the above - I could see that the Representamen could be in a
mode of a Rhematic Indexical Sinsign.


        But- in none of the above - do I define the loud sound as the
Representamen, since I maintain that its role is mediation.


        On Sun 04/02/18  7:13 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt [2] sent:
 Edwina, List:
 Yes, again, we have very different definitions of "Representamen." 
Just to clarify--are you saying that in your view, the loud sound
cannot be treated as the Representamen in any semiotic analysis of
this scenario?  If so, why not?
 Jon S.  
 On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Edwina Taborsky  wrote:
        I would disagree. The falling of the tree is a full Sign
[O-R-I]....with the actual fall as the Dynamic Interpretant. The
wind-taking-down-the-tree might by a Dynamic Object to the
tree...which then reacts by falling [DI]. 

        But within the bird, what affects the senses of the bird - is that
loud sound. That is the external Dynamic Object to that situation.
The Immediate Object is whatever sensual data is felt within the bird
from that sound.  The Representamen is a process of mediating this
sensate data into an interpretation [II and DI].  

 On Sun 04/02/18  4:08 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt
 Helmut, List:
 In my view, we can indeed take the loud sound to be the
Representamen, as I initially suggested--noting again that my
definition differs significantly from Edwina's.  This leads to a
different analysis in which the Dynamic Object is the falling of the
tree that causes the sound, with the other terms reassigned
accordingly.  Sign-action is mediation, even though the Sign itself
is indeed the  First Correlate of the genuine triadic relation that
has the Object as its Second Correlate and the Interpretant as its
Third Correlate (cf. EP 2:290; 1903). 
Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAProfessional Engineer, Amateur
Philosopher, Lutheran [3] - [4] 

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