Edwina, List:

I still think that the IO-R-II triad is within the *Sign*, not necessarily
within the bird (Receiver), but we can set that disagreement aside for
now.  More to the point--in your view, does semiosis *only *take place
within the bird?  Is there no *other *semiosis going on, in which the loud
sound plays the role of the Representamen?

How can the Representamen be classified as *general *(Legisign or Type) in
a scenario where an *individual *sound leads an *individual *bird to
the *individual
*action of flight?  I thought you were saying in your previous post that it
is a Rhematic Indexical Sinsign, which makes much more sense to me.


Jon S.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 8:22 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca> wrote:

> The key action of semiosis that I am examining takes place within the
> bird....the IO-Representamen-II.
> A Representamen is always internal to the triad.
> The loud sound is both the Dynamic Object - which causes the bird to react
> and..a version of that loud sound within the bird's neurological system is
> the IO.
> What mediates between the tree and the bird? The action of semiosis: which
> is triadic - : O-R-I, or DO-IO-R-II-DI.
> The sound - which has affected the bird - is the Dynamic Object.
> The Representamen is the action of mediation within the Triad; it doesn't
> stand alone.
> ------------------------
> A deaf bird would see the other bird flee; that would be the DO to that
> deaf bird- the bird's flight.
> Then, the deaf bird's IO would be its neurological impression of that
> other flight; mediated by its Representamen of knowledge of that
> adrenalin rush...to its own II and then - its own DI or flight.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> No - I don't consider that the Representamen in these 'bird cases' is in a
> mode of Secondness. It's in a mode of Thirdness - the knowledge base, both
> biological and learned, of that bird.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Edwina
> On Sun 04/02/18 8:42 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent:
> Edwina, List:
> Just a few comments--not to start another argument, just to highlight more
> differences in our views that are becoming apparent.
> The loud sound involves the behavior of matter, which is effete mind, and
> mediates between the falling tree and the fleeing bird; so I am still not
> seeing why it could not be a Representamen if the scenario is analyzed in a
> certain way.  Are you positing some kind of discontinuity in the semiosis
> during the chain of events from the falling of the tree, to the loud sound
> that it causes, to the impinging of the propagating sound waves on the
> bird, to its resulting neural pattern, to its flight?  Otherwise, it seems
> to me that each of these could be analyzed as a Representamen--even the
> bird's flight, which might signal to another bird (say, a deaf one) that it
> should flee, as well.
> As I have stated a couple of times before, I consider our example to be
> one in which all of the correlates are Existents (2ns); i.e., per the 1903
> Sign classification, it is an Indexical Sinsign, although I am inclined to
> agree that it is Rhematic, rather than Dicent.  The bird's
> reaction/interpretation of the Sign is the individual action of flight;
> the habit was already in place before the loud sound ever happened.
> Regards,
> Jon S.
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca>
> wrote:
>> 1]Jon - to me, the Representamen is an act of mediation; it transforms
>> the data from the IO [Immediate Object] into an Interpretation...
>> So- to me, the loud sound is incoming sensate data; It doesn't act
>> as MIND, transforming this sound into some interpretation of it.
>> I am, in the above, assuming that the Representamen is in a mode of
>> Thirdness [Mind]. For example, as
>> O-R-I or a Rhematic Indexical Legisign, an individual interpretation of
>> local stimuli as referenced to a general rule.
>> So- the bird's reaction/interpretation of the sound..is the habit of
>> flight.
>> But- the Representamen can be in other modes.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------------------------------------------
>> 2] Now..let's see..what if it's instead in a mode of Firstness.
>> this would have the triad [O-R-I] as a Rhematic Iconic Qualisign- where
>> all three parts of the Sign are in a mode of Firstness. Peirce's example
>> was that 'feeling of redness'; this example would be a feeling of sound. A
>> local and internal non-interpreted, non-describe individual state.
>> 3] What if the Representamen were in a mode of Secondness. There are
>> three classes where the R is in a mode of Secondness:
>> O-R-I   or 1-2-1 A Rhematic Iconic Sinsign. An individual diagram; an
>> iconic non-analyzed description of a sensation
>> O-R-I or 2-2-1  A Rhematic Indexical Sinsign .  A spontaneous cry. a
>> local non-intentional reaction to a local and direct indexical stimuli.
>> O-R-I or 2-2-2- a Dicent Indexical Sinsign; a mechanical reaction.
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> So - in the above - I could see that the Representamen could be in a mode
>> of Secondness..as a Rhematic Indexical Sinsign.
>> ---------------------------
>> But- in none of the above - do I define the loud sound as the
>> Representamen, since I maintain that its role is mediation.
>> Edwina
>> On Sun 04/02/18 7:13 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent:
>> Edwina, List:
>> Yes, again, we have very different definitions of "Representamen."  Just
>> to clarify--are you saying that in your view, the loud sound cannot be
>> treated as the Representamen in any semiotic analysis of this scenario?
>> If so, why not?
>> Thanks,
>> Jon S.
>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> I would disagree. The falling of the tree is a full Sign [O-R-I]....with
>>> the actual fall as the Dynamic Interpretant. The wind-taking-down-the-tree
>>> might by a Dynamic Object to the tree...which then reacts by falling [DI].
>>> But within the bird, what affects the senses of the bird - is that loud
>>> sound. That is the external Dynamic Object to that situation. The Immediate
>>> Object is whatever sensual data is felt within the bird from that sound.
>>> The Representamen is a process of mediating this sensate data into an
>>> interpretation [II and DI].
>>> Edwina
>>> On Sun 04/02/18 4:08 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com
>>> sent:
>>> Helmut, List:
>>> In my view, we can indeed take the loud sound to be the Representamen,
>>> as I initially suggested--noting again that my definition differs
>>> significantly from Edwina's.  This leads to a different analysis in which
>>> the Dynamic Object is the falling of the tree that causes the sound,
>>> with the other terms reassigned accordingly.  Sign-action is mediation,
>>> even though the Sign itself is indeed the First Correlate of the
>>> genuine triadic relation that has the Object as its Second Correlate and
>>> the Interpretant as its Third Correlate (cf. EP 2:290; 1903).
>>> Regards,
>>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>>> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
>>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
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