BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }As usual - I have a different outline. I think there are multiple Signs involved. I understand the Sign as: DO-[IO-R-DI]...and often DI. That's the basic format.
1. Child touches hot stove: Rhematic Iconic Qualisign - a feeling of hot [without consciousness of it as hot]. DO is the stove. R is the physiology of skin. II is the feeling. 2. Child cries out: Rhematic Indexical Sinsign - spontaneous cry. DO is THE FEELING OF HEAT; i.e., the feeling of experience the above Sign. R is the physiology's reaction to heat. 3. Mother hears cry: Both a Rhematic Iconic Qualisign and a Rhematic Indexical Legisign - mother's FEELING on hearing the cry; mother's connecting this cry with her child and with pain DO is the cry; R is her knowledge base that a cry is pain; and indexically, that it is her child's pain 4. Mother decides what to do: Argument Symbolic Legisign - mother thinks how to treat a burn. DO is the events in #3; R is her knowledge base. DI is the ice and lotions. 5. Mother treats child: Dicent Symbolic Legisign - mother treats child. DO is the burn AND the DI of #4, the ice and lotions; R is her knowledge That's how I see it. Again, my view is that the R is internal, is a general knowledge base - whether it is physiological, biological or conceptual. So - I disagree with Jon that the R is the cry of the child... Edwina On Thu 08/02/18 8:08 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt jonalanschm...@gmail.com sent: Gary R., List: I am currently trying out in my own mind defining the Immediate Object as the partial combination of attributes of the Dynamic Object by which the Sign denotes it. It is partial because (as you said) knowing the DO in its fullness is an impossibility. It does not itself predicate anything of the DO (as Gary F. said)--that would make it a Sign in its own right, rather than a part of a Sign--but it seems to me that it must somehow involve enough of the DO's attributes to ground (as you said) its association with the DO. Collateral Experience would then be the aggregate of previous IOs by which someone is already acquainted with the DO, and thus recognizes the Sign as denoting it. What do you think? As for your thought experiment, I believe that any analysis of semiosis should begin by identifying the specific Sign(s) of interest, because that will affect how we classify everything else. For example, consider the girl's scream as the Sign. It seems to me that its DO is the burning of her hand, its IO is the pain that she feels, its R is the sound that she makes, its II is the range of possible effects that this might have, and its DI is the response of her mother. All of these assignments are somewhat arbitrary, though, because various other things are also happening--both internal and external to the girl--that would warrant a different yet equally valid analysis, even if the terminological definitions are exactly the same. In that sense, I am constructing a diagram that embodies what I discern to be the significant relations among the parts of the (in this case) hypothetical situation. Again, what do you think? Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAProfessional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Laymanwww.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [1] - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [2] On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: Jeff, Jon S, Edwina, Gary f, Helmut, list, I agree with Jon S that there is value in theoretical as well as practical (pragmatic) analyses of the Sign and pragmaticism more generally. While, as I noted in a post of a few days ago, it would seem that we have been concentrating on the theoretical much more than the practical for the last several months, while there is surely a place for discussions of both on the list. Still, I hope Mary's questions and Dan's comments will encourage forum members to initiate threads on pragmatism which are less theoretical. But first, thanks for this interesting, albeit perhaps controversial post, Jeff. You concluded: JD: Putting the matter in simpler terms, it might be good to ask how inner and outer apply to signs that stand in relations of similarity to their objects (e.g., icons), and then take up the question of how it applies to an individual substantial object, a general conception--and then to a thinking being like us who sees the world in terms of what is internal to thought and what is external to thought. The phenomena in our experience of inner (e.g., subjective) and outer (e.g., objective) is, I take it, being explained in terms of the way the distinction is applied in the cases of these relatively simpler kinds of things--largely because that is how greater clarity can be achieved. I'm interested in this matter of outer-inner from several standpoint including in terms of Peirce's notion of "signs of signs," an expression he introduces tentatively late in his work on semeiotic in a letter to Victoria Welby. I'd also like to discuss further, but not much in this post, the Immediate Object--which seems, along with the Representamen, to be a continuing bone of contention for some. I would, however, note that Gary f has already given us as a springboard for discussion by offering a rather useful quote of Peirce's from a letter to William James in one of the Lowell threads. I think that quotation still needs to be further unpacked/analyzed. But, in addition, in an off-list note Gary f commented: Gf: Quotes from the Logic Notebook and a couple of other sources. . . make Peirce’s definitions and actual usage of the term immediate object very clear: it’s the “part of the sign which indicates or represents the dynamic object” (but does not predicate anything of that object, such as recognizing it as a member of a general class would do). The IO is that “ part of the sign which indicates or represents the dynamic object” (but does not predicate anything of that object)." But, again, I would suggest as I did earlier that it indicates the Ground of the Object, not the Object in its fullness, an impossibility. But I can imagine that some might argue that it indeed does indicates the DO itself, known through collateral observation. But for now let me return to my thought-experiment based on Peirce's example of how we learn, "A child learns a lesson." So, again, the example (developed a little): A young child told not to touch the hot stove nevertheless touches it to find out for herself. She fulls back her hand as she screams in pain at which point her mother, hearing her scream, rushes to her and quickly puts ice and then ointment on her fingers. I would suggest that something involved in 'hot stove burners' (the direct object) might be seen as a sign (or signs, say of heat, etc.) for some here. What is the putative sign here? Then the child's mind in relation to the DO (having 'determined' her IO, 'selecting', so to speak, some few out of all the possible characteristics/attributes of the DO, these being most likely iconic signs) forms a ground, or basis, of her semiosis, an internal sign, that is, her IO-R-DI. So, what is her Immediate Object? What is her Representamen? Now her DI would seem to be her scream: that is another sign, an external sign for her mother which is (or involves) a DO which, again, 'determines' her internal IO-R-DI, running to the child, etc. What is the Dynamic Object for her mother. Her mother's thoughts and actions represent other signs, etc. I'd like to hear from folk on the list how they might characterize the Signs and semiosis involved in this example. Best, Gary R Gary RichmondPhilosophy and Critical ThinkingCommunication StudiesLaGuardia College of the City University of New York718 482-5690 [4] Links: ------ [1] http://www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [2] http://twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [3] http://webmail.primus.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'gary.richm...@gmail.com\',\'\',\'\',\'\') [4] http://webmail.primus.ca/tel:(718)%20482-5690
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