List: With respect to the comments below from both Kirsti and Gary F., as the old joke goes, "I resemble that remark." I am definitely someone who "often finds that the thought is changed by the act of writing it down," and I generally spend a lot of time (probably too much; almost an hour just on this post) formulating and reformulating my words accordingly. As another variously attributed saying goes, "I write to find out what I think." I hope it is always evident that my own positions on various matters continue to evolve, and I greatly appreciate having this forum for bouncing my tentative and sometimes misguided ideas about Peirce off those of you who have been wrestling with the relevant issues far longer than I have.
Kirsti: Regarding the pragmatic maxim, as both Gary F. and Jon A. have pointed out, Peirce offered more than two formulations. 1. Consider what effects, that might conceivably have practical bearings, we conceive the object of our conception to have. Then, our conception of these effects is the whole of our conception of the object. (CP 5.402, EP 1:132; 1878) 2. ... every theoretical judgment expressible in a sentence in the indicative mood is a confused form of thought whose only meaning, if it has any, lies in its tendency to enforce a corresponding practical maxim expressible as a conditional sentence having its apodosis in the imperative mood. (CP 5.18, EP 2:135; 1903) 3. The entire intellectual purport of any symbol consists in the total of all general modes of rational conduct which, conditionally upon all the possible different circumstances and desires, would ensue upon the acceptance of the symbol. (CP 5.438, EP 2:346; 1905) 4. In order to ascertain the meaning of an intellectual conception one should consider what practical consequences might conceivably result by necessity from the truth of that conception; and the sum of these consequences will constitute the entire meaning of the conception. (CP 5.9; c. 1905) 5. ... the whole meaning of an intellectual predicate is that certain kinds of events would happen, once in so often, in the course of experience, under certain kinds of existential [conditions/circumstances]. (CP 5.468, EP 2:402; 1907) #1 is certainly the First one, but Peirce quoted it upon offering both #2 and #3 as different restatements of it; which of these were you identifying as the Second one? Do you think that the other three shed any further light on what Peirce had in mind? Thanks, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 1:23 PM, <kirst...@saunalahti.fi> wrote: > Gary f., list, > > Your response presented as full an understanding of essential points in my > post as I could ever hope. Even more, I was greatly and happily surprised. > > And yes, of course there are any formulations of the ideas conveyed by the > two short expressions he gave a final stamp of his approval by explicitly > NAMING them AS The first and The second formulation of The Pragmatic Maxim > (in EP vol 2). (Note the cardinals!) > > He writes about them all the time, of course. In search of as good a > linguistic expression as he was ever able to come up with. > > But, at a later date he takes up the First of these feeling a need for a > Second, which does not (in any way) contradict with accepting the First, > but taking it into a further stage, so to speak. > > I have not read your book, Gary. I do not read about Peirce, have not done > so for centuries. Which, just as you write, gives much more weight and > value to us both. > > If you see my point on ordinality and cardinality, it is very, very > exceptional. Simplest math is most difficult for both philosophers and > mathematicians to understand. There is this cultural aura around math which > seems to make people bow there heads and kneel. Instead of approaching the > questions at hand head on. > > I have always preached that it takes courage and guts to think properly > and face the consequences of one's own thinking. > > I am very happy to have had the experience of feeling understood in my old > age with some issues I've almost given up hope with. > > My sincere thanks to your, Gary f. > > Kirsti > > g...@gnusystems.ca kirjoitti 14.2.2018 19:32: > >> Kirsti, >> >> I did give your post on ordinality and cardinality a second reading, >> and I think I see your point, but I don’t have any particular >> response to it, except to say that these logico-mathematical issues >> are likely to arise again as we move on to Lowell Lectures 4 and 5, >> where Peirce has much to say about “_multitude”_. >> >> I guess it’s time to start on Lowell 4, which I’ll do any day now >> … my transcription is already up on my website, >> http://gnusystems.ca/Lowell4.htm [1] . >> >> About Peirce’s formulations of the pragmatic maxim, I’m pretty >> sure there are more than two in his writings, so it would help if you >> would quote exactly the two that you refer to as the “first” and >> “second.” Then we can look for a third. >> >> I think your new post makes a very important point when you say that >> “the self to write down was the former self, not exactly the same as >> the one(self) doing the writing down.” Or as I might put it, When >> one decides to write down what one is thinking, one often finds that >> the thought is changed by the act of writing it down. And it may >> change again when you read what you’ve written. So, as you say, >> “We all (hopefully) reformulate what we write during writing. Up >> until it feels good enough. - Or should do so.” >> >> Some of us who post here usually do go through such a process. Others >> are so eager to have their say that they usually hit “Send” >> without even looking over what they’ve written. That’s one extreme >> which tends to increase the quantity, and decrease the quality, of >> posts on the list,— which makes many subscribers impatient. At the >> other extreme are those who formulated their ‘positions’ years >> ago, but never tire of repeating those same formulations or opinions, >> usually in the context of agreeing or disagreeing with somebody >> else’s formulation. That habit also increases the quantity, and >> decreases the overall quality, of posts on the list, because it >> usually generates repetitive “debates” instead of developing a >> genuine _argument_ (in the full Peircean sense of that word). >> >> I think the ideal kind of post on the list is somewhere between those >> two extremes. It’s the kind of post that has already gone through a >> formulation and reformulation process, but takes the result of that >> prior process as an “experiment,” and genuinely hopes to learn >> something new from the result, i.e. from whatever response it gets. As >> you say, “A living mind is continuously active, and any symbol lives >> as long as [its] continuity gets created and recreated by new minds, >> in new contexts.” For instance, I’ve said very similar things in >> my book, but your statement is every bit as _original _as mine was, >> because it was formulated based on _your_ experience and _your_ way of >> using the language. Both of us have “recreated” the symbol by >> reformulating it, “replicating” it in different ways, and thus >> taken its expression a step or two further. That’s part of what I >> call a genuine _argument_ (as opposed to a debate, which is a kind of >> context between two fixed positions). It’s the sense in which Peirce >> said that the Universe is “an argument”, “a vast representamen >> … working out its conclusions in living realities” (EP2:193-4, CP >> 5.119). >> >> I hope you don’t find this presumptuous. At least I can assure you >> that it’s been formulated with some care, including careful >> attention to your post. So if you think I got you wrong, I’d really >> like to know that! >> >> Gary f. >> >> } Poetry is a search for the inexplicable. [Wallace Stevens] { >> >> http://gnusystems.ca/wp/ [2] }{ _Turning Signs_ gateway >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: kirst...@saunalahti.fi [mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi] >> Sent: 14-Feb-18 08:14 >> To: PEIRCE L <PEIRCE-L@list.iupui.edu> >> Subject: [PEIRCE-L] Pragmatic Maxims and mediation (Was Lowell >> Lectures) >> >> List, >> >> First I wish to express my appreciation to Gary f., to his lead and >> his commentaries on LL. - However, it seem to me that the discussions >> tend to get muddled on certain very, very basic respects. >> >> Peirce's first formulation of the Pragmatic Maxims was about >> "practical bearings". So it was about doing something, more >> specifically it was about experimentation. Experimentation is about >> doing systematical observations (with some stated, conscious rules, >> mostly with non conscius habits of feeling). This applies to thought >> experiments just as well. >> >> The second, later formulation of the Pragmatic Maxim is about >> understanding and interpreting the ideas an thoughts mediated by >> texts, diagrams (etc). >> >> But to my knowledge CSP did not write down a third, strictly worded >> formulation of the Maxim. If there is one to be found, it must reside >> in his very latest writings. >> >> However, he left a legacy on how to find and grasp the essence of The >> Third. - To my mind Peircean phenomenology is the Turning Point. And >> the key. >> >> Writing down or drawing down means making one's ideas observable, >> objectifying them to be inspected. By oneself AND by others. But the >> self to write down was the former self, not exactly the same as the >> one(self) doing the writing down. >> >> Husserlian Phenomenology is all about knowledge and consciousness. >> Nonconscious mind gets left out at the outset. (I have consulted >> several experts on Husserl, as well as thoroughly inspected some of >> his key writings.) I have good reasons to believe that Peirce resorted in >> choosing (for some time) not to use the same term in order to avoid >> confusing and muddling his phenomenology with that of Husserl. - >> Hegel's Phenomenology he partly accepted, but definitely not Hegel's >> Logic. >> >> We do have conscious control (deliberation) in starting to write down >> our thoughts and ending it. But our minds are not simultaneously >> starting or ending feeling and thinking. Not with the first nor with >> last word (or line etc). >> >> A living mind is continuously active, and any symbol lives as long as >> continuity gets created and recreated by new minds, in new contexts. >> >> Any act of writing down one's thoughts and ideas is an experiment. We >> all (hopefully) reformulate what we write during writing. Up until it >> feels good enough. - Or should do so. >> >> Peirce List is not supposed to be an arena for just opinions, in the >> the sense: "This is my opinion, and as such it is just as good as yours!". >> - A have seen such a response in the List. - The majority in Peirce's >> times voted him down, remember! >> >> This list is and should by all means remain an arena for >> argumentation, not just expressing opinions. In philosophy and in >> sciences (including human sciences, i.e. humanities) soundness of >> grounds matters. >> >> When I was a little child my mother sometimes used to respond to us >> children: "Auf dumme Fragen antworte ich nicht". I did not understand >> the language, but in time I got the >> message: There was something wrong with the question asked. The >> question was stupid, unanswerable. >> >> Perhaps my interest in formulating questions, in relation with >> possible answers, stems from these early, preschool times. >> >> I will leave below my earlier mail on ordinality and cardinality, >> which, to my mind, deserves a second reading. The choice if of course >> yours. >> >> By the time of the FIRST Maxim, CSP was concentrating on Signs, later >> on (SECOND) he shifted towards Meaning, though not at all changing his >> subject. Just changing the main, but not only perspective. >> >> Best, >> >> Kirsti Määttänen >> >> kirst...@saunalahti.fi kirjoitti 7.12.2017 11:57: >> >> John & Jon, >>> >> >>> The two paragraphs offered by John to clarify the meaning of the verb >> >> 'to indentify' did not do the job for me. Quite the contrary. Many >>> >> questions arose. >>> >> >>> JFS: "In mathematics, it is common practice to "identify" two >>> >> structures that are isomorphic. Some mathematicians call that >>> >> practice "abuse of notation" and insist on adding some annotations to >> >> the marks in order to distinguish the references. But most do not >>> >> bother to clutter their notations with such annotations." >>> >> >>> Question: Which (variety of) notations do you mean? 2 = 2 and a = a >>> ? >> >> Both can be read aloud as – equals – , OR – is identical with – . >> >> >>> The mark remains the same, but there is change of meaning, depending >>> >> on the (mathematical) context. >>> >> With cardinals, 2 = 2 can be taken as equal and identical with 1+1 = >> >> 1+1. With a = a the situation is not that simple. >>> >> >>> With ordinals this does not apply. As was shown by CSP in his >>> >> cyclical arithmetics. >>> >> >>> Not only does "how many?" count, "how many times?" counts. (This is a >> >> joke, mind you). >>> >> >>> Positions within multiple cycles begin to mean a lot. >>> >> >>> Also zero becomes very interesting, indeed. >>> >> >>> When zero was introduced (by arabic influence) to our number system, >>> >> it brought with it not only calculus, but also the arabic numbering >>> >> system. >>> >> >>> Thus 000 = 000000 (etc.), but 10 and 100 and 1000 (etc.) make a huge >> >> difference. (As we all may, sorely or happily, know by looking at >>> >> one's bank accounts.) This is not as trivial as it may seem to some. >> >> Neither mathematically, nor logically. >>> >> >>> The first zero, the second zero, the third zero … acquire a different >> >> meaning by their relative position in the chain of numbers. Which is >> >> not trivial, either. >>> >> >>> Relational logic is needed. Which is just as complex (and perplex) >>> >> as CSP has shown it to be. >>> >> >>> I have presented my thoughts as simply as I possibly can, but it does >> >> not follow that the thoughts are inherently simple. >>> >> >>> With ordered chains of numbers (or other kindred marks) the problem of >> >> reversibility and irreversibility acquire a new acuity. >>> >> >>> CPS deals with the problem a lot in Lowell Lectures. >>> >> >>> I'll leave my second question on the meaning of identifying to a later >> >> date. >>> >> >>> Best, >>> >> Kirsti Määttänen >> >> >>> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://gnusystems.ca/Lowell4.htm >> [2] http://gnusystems.ca/wp/ > >
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